What vehicle do you drive?

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what Suineg set it to
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I'm not saying they're good but the fact that I'm more interested in what the Asian market produces for vehicles at the prices they're selling at perhaps says something about how stale the US market has become. I think we're heading into another one of those eras where all the domestic cars start to suck and look alike.
 
Siliconemelons

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tesla is a great example to show just how inflated the US production line is.

look at their costs per car in China vs US

also it is a funny hedge, if for some reason Tesla USA can’t make profit, they simply off shore everything like everyone else, boom more profit. It is also a shining light that Tesla USA makes higher margin than the big 3 and is MORE us based, big difference? No unions or dealer Ponzi schemes
 
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Burren

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The Chinese cars are less expensive because they are crap. They will have cheap, shitty build quality and won’t be reliable. Also, that render is just a photoshop of several existing cars; the front is a damn McLaren Artura.
 
Mizake

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Burren said:
The Chinese cars are less expensive because they are crap. They will have cheap, shitty build quality and won’t be reliable. Also, that render is just a photoshop of several existing cars; the front is a damn McLaren Artura.
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You know, they said the same thing about Japanese cars back in the 70s/80s. Then they improved to the point where companies like Lexus overtook the US in quality. Then when Korean cars came in the 90s, same thing, people said the quality was crap, lo and behold, years later Hyundai ends up rated higher quality than most of the Big 3.

Point being, the quality might be crap now, but given how Asians build cars, there is a distinct possibility that the Chinese car companies that you consider crap today will be the quality cars of tomorrow. Legacy US automakers are dinosaurs, they don't innovate, they don't improve. Also, if the quality really was that crappy, then we wouldn't have a massive 25% tariff on Chinese cars - we would just let them import cars and no one would buy them because they are "crap". Clearly the tariff is in place to protect US automakers against a perceived risk/threat.
 
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Burren

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Mizake said:
You know, they said the same thing about Japanese cars back in the 70s/80s. Then they improved to the point where companies like Lexus overtook the US in quality. Then when Korean cars came in the 90s, same thing, people said the quality was crap, lo and behold, years later Hyundai ends up rated higher quality than most of the Big 3.

Point being, the quality might be crap now, but given how Asians build cars, there is a distinct possibility that the Chinese car companies that you consider crap today will be the quality cars of tomorrow. Legacy US automakers are dinosaurs, they don't innovate, they don't improve. Also, if the quality really was that crappy, then we wouldn't have a massive 25% tariff on Chinese cars - we would just let them import cars and no one would buy them because they are "crap". Clearly the tariff is in place to protect US automakers against a perceived risk/threat.
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Yes, maybe. But, I look at their massive empty cities, crumbling highrises, huge dams falling apart, etc etc and I make a judgement call.
 
Cad

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Mizake said:
You know, they said the same thing about Japanese cars back in the 70s/80s. Then they improved to the point where companies like Lexus overtook the US in quality. Then when Korean cars came in the 90s, same thing, people said the quality was crap, lo and behold, years later Hyundai ends up rated higher quality than most of the Big 3.

Point being, the quality might be crap now, but given how Asians build cars, there is a distinct possibility that the Chinese car companies that you consider crap today will be the quality cars of tomorrow. Legacy US automakers are dinosaurs, they don't innovate, they don't improve. Also, if the quality really was that crappy, then we wouldn't have a massive 25% tariff on Chinese cars - we would just let them import cars and no one would buy them because they are "crap". Clearly the tariff is in place to protect US automakers against a perceived risk/threat.
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Japanese cars in the 70's and 80's were total pieces of shit though. So were most of the American cars, but still. The whole reason they came out with Lexus/Infiniti was to try to cast off the prior econo-car shitbox image.

Lexus wasn't made to compete with anything American btw, it was made to compete with Mercedes/BMW.
 
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I think the other point is the Chinese are great at copying things effectively. ICE cars are basically solved, and EVs will be soon anyway. Sure there will be advancements but I mean these companies are not figuring out how a suspension works or trunk struts or windshields.
 
Mizake

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Burren said:
Yes, maybe. But, I look at their massive empty cities, crumbling highrises, huge dams falling apart, etc etc and I make a judgement call.
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Oh, so you've seen this crumbling infrastructure in person? Or are you just parroting what you've read and seen from CNN and MSM?

I go to China every year for business. I've been to Russia 5-6 times in my life.

There is a reason all the propaganda you read is negative regarding these 2 countries. Because they are the perceived enemies of the US.

From my personal experience, Russia has the most beautiful women in the world, bar none, not even countries like Sweden or Brazil. They are also doing quite well economically, although you would never get that sense from our news. I can't speak about the last few years since the Ukraine war broke out, but definitely up to mid 2010s Russia was quite prosperous.

China is doing fine also. Of course, all you read in the news is about how the country is falling apart, their economy is in shambles, etc.

It would be like if someone shined a spotlight on the worst parts of the US, like black Chicago or inner city Baltimore and had you believe that was how the rest of America was.

Honestly I thought people on this board would be smart enough to realize almost everything published by MSM is propaganda.
 
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Mizake

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Japanese cars in the 70's and 80's were total pieces of shit though. So were most of the American cars, but still. The whole reason they came out with Lexus/Infiniti was to try to cast off the prior econo-car shitbox image.

Lexus wasn't made to compete with anything American btw, it was made to compete with Mercedes/BMW.
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That's not the point. The point is when these Asian car companies started making cars they were shit, but the figured things out and then quality improved dramatically. They started making luxury cars, so Toyota comes up with Lexus, Nissan makes Infinity, Honda makes Acura etc.

Same thing with the Koreans. Hyundai was crap, then it got better, now they have Genesis as a luxury brand.

Now China is making cars. This is their first iteration, so just like the other Asian car companies, they are shit. It's their first try.

However, if history has shown anything, it's that these Asian car companies continue to improve to the point where they rival and overcome their American and European rivals.

Will China do the same? Who knows. But I wouldn't count them out.

Again, if we had nothing to fear, we wouldn't be imposing a 25% tariff on them.
 
sleevedraw

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Mizake said:
Oh, so you've seen this crumbling infrastructure in person? Or are you just parroting what you've read and seen from CNN and MSM?

I go to China every year for business. I've been to Russia 5-6 times in my life.

There is a reason all the propaganda you read is negative regarding these 2 countries. Because they are the perceived enemies of the US.

From my personal experience, Russia has the most beautiful women in the world, bar none, not even countries like Sweden or Brazil. They are also doing quite well economically, although you would never get that sense from our news. I can't speak about the last few years since the Ukraine war broke out, but definitely up to mid 2010s Russia was quite prosperous.

China is doing fine also. Of course, all you read in the news is about how the country is falling apart, their economy is in shambles, etc.

It would be like if someone shined a spotlight on the worst parts of the US, like black Chicago or inner city Baltimore and had you believe that was how the rest of America was.

Honestly I thought people on this board would be smart enough to realize almost everything published by MSM is propaganda.
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Additionally, there are some Chinese products that are already class leaders. Anker makes fantastic chargers, TP-Link makes great routers (consumer-grade, anyway).

In my experience, a lot of Chinese stuff is already moving into "you get what you pay for" territory - you can either get the traditional cheap, junker products that will break in less than a year, or you can pay a bit more and get something much more reliable.
 
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Burren

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CNN and MSNBC? Hahahahahaha. “News” for intellectual midgets? No thanks.

yes, I’ve been.
 
Fucker

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Burren said:
The Chinese cars are less expensive because they are crap. They will have cheap, shitty build quality and won’t be reliable. Also, that render is just a photoshop of several existing cars; the front is a damn McLaren Artura.
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I'm sure they will get there or even fine by now. They've been making cars for a while now. That little Buick is entirely a Chinese effort, and they designed and manufactured Lincoln's new SUV. Keep in mind also that it takes a pretty low effort to rival US made cars because they are the biggest piles of shit I have ever seen. As with anything else Chinese, you can get something that is trash, or something that is acceptable.
 
Burren

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Fucker said:
I'm sure they will get there or even fine by now. They've been making cars for a while now. That little Buick is entirely a Chinese effort, and they designed and manufactured Lincoln's new SUV. Keep in mind also that it takes a pretty low effort to rival US made cars because they are the biggest piles of shit I have ever seen. As with anything else Chinese, you can get something that is trash, or something that is acceptable.
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No question US cars have been bad for generations.
 
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Cad

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Mizake said:
That's not the point. The point is when these Asian car companies started making cars they were shit, but the figured things out and then quality improved dramatically. They started making luxury cars, so Toyota comes up with Lexus, Nissan makes Infinity, Honda makes Acura etc.

Same thing with the Koreans. Hyundai was crap, then it got better, now they have Genesis as a luxury brand.

Now China is making cars. This is their first iteration, so just like the other Asian car companies, they are shit. It's their first try.

However, if history has shown anything, it's that these Asian car companies continue to improve to the point where they rival and overcome their American and European rivals.

Will China do the same? Who knows. But I wouldn't count them out.

Again, if we had nothing to fear, we wouldn't be imposing a 25% tariff on them.
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I think you're making a mistake assuming China is culturally similar to Japan and South Korea. It's not.

It's like thinking Italian cars must be similar to German cars because "those European car companies" all make cars. The culture of those countries is vastly different and shows in their output.
 
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what Suineg set it to
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Cad said:
I think you're making a mistake assuming China is culturally similar to Japan and South Korea. It's not.

It's like thinking Italian cars must be similar to German cars because "those European car companies" all make cars. The culture of those countries is vastly different and shows in their output.
Click to expand...

Citation needed.
 
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