That's not nice.
I get it though, your sarcasm, hyperbole and assumptions were funny.
Older games had plenty to do, just like newer ones did. The difference is the stuff was just there, not a daily or achievement.
I never once stated or implied newer games don't have a RNG. You intentionally missed the point to show off with a Saturday night rant. The RNG isn't the point, the point is games are primarily designed around direct rewards these days, not indirect, and in that design there is too much control and creates too much expectation, so the playerbase because entitled, selfish, and petulant (somehow more than even EQ players ever were, which is quite amazing).
I just had an entire interaction with someone making the very point that people who play more will benefit more these days, and that because the rewards are so tangible these days so is that other person's benefit, and that's a detriment in current games, so don't try to use that point against me.
Time will always be a factor, the difference is that time is game-controlled now, not in the hands of players. Sure, people set up their own arbitrary measures on time expectations, but nothing in the game rigidly dictated anything. Now, devs try to design games so they're accessible to everyone in some way at all times, and it doesn't work. Because instead of looking for a group that has 5 hours to do something long, instead of looking for a group that has time for something 2 hours, things are designed so you'll often be doing 5 different 1 hour things over and over, because the game dictates it, tracks it, provides it, etc. Again, a lot of people may enjoy not really having to think or decide what they want to do, why, when, etc, but I personally really don't like everything so over-designed to the point I practically log in and a game gives me waypoints based on what I should be doing.
Not to mention, trying to say a 'don't come' mechanic existed in older games and is bad, isn't really helping whatever argument you're trying to make, considering EQ was open raiding for a long time, and it's the newer games where everything is over-tuned for specific amounts of players. Especially in this thread where they tried to bring 40 man raids back! I won't even bother making the argument that not everyone was a hardcore asshole in EQ, and plenty of guilds like mine had plenty of casual players making a raid a week, or having to leave early. We could handle it, because we weren't losing one person in a very rigidly set raid amount. Again, we were talking about general design and dungeons specifically.
Seriously, we're currently in the fucking AGE of spreadsheets, where someone can look at exact class makeup, targets, force online, and say exactly how long it should take and whether you're allowed to come or not. And you're going to bring up 'don't come' as relates to EQ as support of current design? That doesn't make much sense.
I brought up my FBSS experience because Xevy brought that singular experience up, so nice try and you're clearly projecting a lot so I understand I'm not really the one you're mad at, but really, fuck you.
Lets start at the top. There was no hyperbole, sarcasm, or assumptions. Everything I stated were facts.
Older games had shit to do, unless your version of old is WoW Vanilla. EQ/DAOC/FFXI, which were the "older" games that everyone mentions (if you are talking Merdian or something else, I have no idea what to say to you. Hug UO more?) had jack and shit to do outside of a very small subset of actions. Either you were raiding and killing shit, or you were leveling an alt, or running dungeons/camping shit to get items. Which, literally, every game ever has had and will continue to have. Older games offered absolutely -nothing- that modern games do not offer, and you stating anything similar is you simply not knowing what you are talking about. That is a fact, by the way.
Games are not designed around direct reward. The token system is a patch for the majority of any group feeling like they wasted their time. That is not direct reward, that is a consolation prize in every world. The playerbase doesn't become entitled because they get a timer to an item; they know that they aren't being fucked with if they get something after x amount of attempts that is most likely -still- not best in slot or anything even close. If you had actually played any of the games you think do this, you would know you are completely wrong 100% of the time. This is a favorite and completely wrong argument of the mmo hipster crowd who simply don't know what the fuck they are talking about like to parrot. You literally cannot be more wrong on this, and that's not an opinion.
I'm glad you had an interaction with someone who refuted the statement " Xev-holes are more tangibly winning, because if you run a dungeon, and it takes x amount of time to earn y amount of dungeon-currency, etc, guess what, now there's even less random chance and luck for the person who plays less. At least in a more open-world style system, you might sometimes get lucky, instead of being able to plot out your inferiority ahead of time." because if you had ever actually played any MMORPGS ever, you would know that luck and chance play a massive fucking part of you getting anything in any game, ever. Those players can still get lucky, and do, in every game released since whatever heyday you think existed, because those mechanics still exist in every game ever. You are just too retarded to see this point, which is fine; retards have their rights too.
Timing is still player controlled, and for you to say otherwise just shows your complete inability to understand what the words you type mean. Grouping mechanics previously were "do you have enough time? no? Fuck you" and now they are "Can you run something and complete it, within the time constraints? No? Fuck you." This hasn't changed at all in the years between when you apparently played an mmo and when you read about one. Your concepts of "If you don't have 5 hours, here's 5 different 1 hour things" has absolutely no place in reality. What they have done, is create levels of content that require various amounts of time. Big raids still take shitloads of time. Small dungeon adventures don't take nearly as long. Except for now you know what you are getting into without having to fuck around all day waiting for an invite. This is bad... how? It isn't overdesigned. It is offering various targets for various groups. Guess what, cupcake. You can still spend 5 hours doing something in modern mmos and not be punished for it, in any game ever. In fact, your ability to do so increases your power just as much as being able to spend 5 hours in the "old" games increased it. You are wrong, and laughably so.
Lets talk EQ, since you brought it up again. Time was always a factor, and saying otherwise just makes you look like an idiot. My argument that you failed to even come close to addressing was that time constraints existed in previous games, so developing around time constraints means little, since the idea was already there. Them developing 30 minute dungeons? Means jack and shit, because the mechanic difference between the "open" dungeons of EQ (Yeah, alright dude) and instances is that people running instances are generally doing something while camping a static spawn in EQ means they sit on their ass 90% of the time. I played a SK and I pulled in every group I ever worked with, so I know exactly what I'm talking about. Them taking control out of the player's hands is just you being salty that modern games have moved away from the camping mechanic. Which is fine and you can be salty, but it doesn't make your position any less retarded when it comes to a game sense.
The "Don't Come" mechanic existed, and if you are posting from the position of a main tank or cleric, fuck right the hell off. Your opinion means shit in those cases. If you are a DPS, I'm glad you had a permagroup that waited for you to log on and kicked people to make room for you or left an empty spot just in case you would log in. By the way? That shit didn't happen for 99% of the playerbase. Those other players who weren't in your unique position or one of those classes? Yeah, they waited hours, and weighed their time spent in the game on "Should I log in if I'm not going to get a group?" or not. I can't even see how this is an arguable thing; it literally happened every day during the heyday of EQ's career.
EQ was "open raiding" for the first raids it had, ie, Vox and Naggy. Every other raid after that sure as hell wasn't open. Yes, you -could- bring 100 players to a 30 player event. It didn't magically change the amount of loot that dropped. Even EQ was optimized for specific raid sizes, regardless of how many people you brought. Unless you are making the argument that EQ devs had no fucking idea what they were doing, in which case I'd agree with you. Modern raids (Oh yeah, EQ had capped raids in 2003. How old are we talking here, son?) still reward the same amount of loot for increasing numbers of players, it is just "better" loot these days. Not "only loot" as it was in EQ's heyday. Also, dude... open being purely player max is a stupid metric, and I hope you know that. In basically every mainstream game today, you can join open raids to get loot. This is a real thing, and if you had played anything after EQ1, you would know that.
You not realizing that people used spreadsheets and exact science when working with EQ raiding just shows your ignorance. I wish Furor or Thott or... literally any guild leader ever would stop in to say how retarded you are, but I'll go ahead and just do it for them. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about, period. You must have literally never raided ever or at least never raided current content as it applies to everquest.
Seriously dude, you could not be more wrong on so many points. Dumar, is this you?
