Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
916
48
I can have a conversation with most people about how fucking dumb it was all the shit we put up with in classic EQ because it was new/fresh/novel, and how generally it's much easier and more fun to be an online PC gamer in 2014 than it was in 1999. But the handful of my "hardcore" friends freak the fuck out if I imply anything was ever wrong with original Everquest -- "in fact", they say, "something must be wrong with you. Blizzard ruined MMOs and turned people like you into fucking casuals!"
EQ was new, was 3D, was also a chat with dragons. All we did was chatting with friends and internet strangers instead of watching TV, occasionally we had to pay attention because a dragon was angry with us. I never poopsocked in EQ and I camped an item only once in my entire life (with several breaks) and still had fun. I had fun in WS for... a couple weeks, then it got boring and I stopped playing. Nothing more, nothing less.
I play the shit out of WoW, because it's fun, what somebody thinks of WoW is not my concern and never will be.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Draegan, Xevy comes of as mad for the same two reasons my "hardcore" friends come across as mad.

A) The MMO-scape has changed, and there aren't 100 casuals standing around EC tunnel / Gfay slobbing the throbbing e-peen of a "hardcore raider". The hardcore players miss this shit; the more have-nots that flee the scene the more its pretty obvious that the "hardcore players " are just a bunch of doods pouring 40+ hours a week into a video game. Some of them are okay with this, others don't like meeting the man behind the curtain. I mean, if someone you knew said he spends 40+ hours a week at the local arcade with twenty other people playing the shit out of [insert any arcade game here].

B) The gravitation of the player-base to the casual side is an indirect value judgement, and the hardcores do not like the implication. No "hardcore MMO raider" wants to seriously think to himself: ("Jesus christ, have Ireallyinvested years of my life in something just to impress strangers on the internet? Why don't people care anymore? Did they ever care?") If no one truly gives a shit that you killed raid mobs in Wildstar, then you must have done it because it was fun... and for a lot of people, it never was. "Hardcore" raiding as a whole was never fun, you were just doing it to puff that e-peen up.

I can have a conversation with most people about how fucking dumb it was all the shit we put up with in classic EQ because it was new/fresh/novel, and how generally it's much easier and more fun to be an online PC gamer in 2014 than it was in 1999. But the handful of my "hardcore" friends freak the fuck out if I imply anything was ever wrong with original Everquest -- "in fact", they say, "something must be wrong with you. Blizzard ruined MMOs and turned people like you into fucking casuals!"
I agree with your sentiment to some degree but I think it's invalid when compared to the rest of the world. In almost any hobby you have people who are hardcore and casual. LOL has pro's and people like me. Football has Pros, College Stars and Flag football players. Snowboarders, Skateboarders, video game players, softball players, poker players etc. They all have different levels of competition, skill level, fame and participation.

That's the macro view of everything. So let me address your points through that lens because I think your post is somewhat condescending just as much as Xevy's post is retarded.

The MMO landscape has changed, for the better, and has allowed in millions of more people when compared to 15 years ago. It is ever increasingly hard to become the "known player" due to the population of the game and the exposure to top end players. In MMOs where you have multiple servers and no cross over, high end players have a harder time to gain "fame" or name recognition. No one watches MMO streams like MOBA streams so the only way they can feel fame is via standing somewhere and people OOOHing and AAAHing. There is nothing wrong with this, and any hobby/sport/game should have this aspect to it because anyone who puts that much time and effort into it should be recognized for it. LOL has ways of making players stand out, just like any other sport or game for the most part. Even in smaller hobbies have ways of making people known in smaller circles.

The issue here is that people, for the most part, don't give a shit about raiding anymore. Not like people did 10 years ago during Naxx or whatever EQ era people like to remember. So the top end raiders find it even more difficult to find an audience. In the end raiders want to be the best and get to the top. Part of it is the race, part of it is that it's public. The MMO space makes it very difficult to make in public.

Because it's hard to make it public to a larger audience, they tend to lash out at people who say "their game sucks" or call people "scrubs" saying their game is hard, thus justifying their time in the game. If there was a way to feed their ego and give them acclaim for their accomplishments, you probably would never see the response Xevy gave.

So the real question is, do MMOs need to change to allow and broader spectator audience? That's a huge design question. The "next best MMO" is going to create a game that is design to be both challenging and appreciative to a VIEWING audience. It'll need aspects of MOBAs and Fighter games where individual and team based skill is appreciated. That also means that PVE encounters can't be scripted sleep-inducing things.
 

Vitality

HUSTLE
5,808
30
I think instanced raids cut down on the publicity of boss kills outside of world/server firsts.

Games like Eve and EQ with non instanced endgame content that mattered foster more community awareness imo.

I guess the problem with that model is that it cuts into accessibility.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
I think the fact that any dum-dum can run heroics in WoW and can't in WS is why it succeeds.
Since real life prevents me from raiding on a regular basis, doing heroic dungeon crawls with challenging boss mechanics is one thing I am looking for in a MMO. WS definitely had the hardest dungeon crawls of any MMO I have played in the last 5 years. Beating them once gave me a sense of accomplishment, but putting myself thru the torture of running them multiple times is something I didn't look forward to.

The difficulty of veteran dungeons in TESO fell somewhere in between WS and WOW and they were a lot of fun with good boss mechanics but ZOS' mistake was that they gave you no reason to run them other than once to get a skill point. Crafted gear was as good or better than boss loot drops and there was nothing like WOW's system of Justice/Valor points that at least give you a reason for going back and repeating dungeon content.

If WS redesigns their PVE dungeon and raid content to make the challenge more reasonable and less frustrating so that running heroic dungeons with guild mates is fun/entertaining, then I would give the game a second chance.
 

Cerzi

Golden Knight of the Realm
110
10
I just think if things went back to having a huge death penalty, even in raids, the format would immediately become instantly more watchable and popular on twitch, etc. Nobody wants to watch 20-40 people wipe endlessly making tiny bits of progression each attempt, because it's just not at all exciting. For something to be worth watching on twitch the stakes need to be higher. Obviously directly competitive games have this. The only way an MMO could have this is if a bunch of people raiding were risking a hell of a lot to do what people are watching them do. Nobody watches anyone play Path of Exile in standard league - they watch hardcore players, and especially hardcore players that take a lot of risk. Because people want to see a RIP, and see the reaction. Or they just want to admire some big balls.

If raiding was 20-40 people making a serious gamble, I think it would instantly become something more respected and admired. I'm talking a modern day Plane of Fear break-in, but as the basis for all content. Doesn't matter what the punishment for failing is - whether it's massive corpse runs that require help from other guilds, actual permadeath, a zap to everyones testicles in real life - whatever, as long as it's meaningful. Then the people and guilds who are successful aren't simply the poopsockers obsessed with competing over something nobody really cares about - they're the people who did something remarkable despite immense pressure. Suddenly people want to see, and egos are fed.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,593
11,918
I dunno what the hell the definition people use for casual is anymore. Is it playtime or what content they are interested in? You have people in wow doing LFR for 40 hours a week and aren't interested in serious raiding. Is that a hardcore casual?
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
Draegan,

I agree with most of your observations but not your conclusion. There are tons of shit people pour tons of time into that has no audience. Remember that girl who could stack cups really fast? Or a more common occurrence, some people are just super into model trains. They pursue their hobby because they enjoy it, not because they have a wide audience promising them glory if they become the best model train builder in the world. I feel like at least once a month I see something that makes me think : ("Why the fuck did that person ever spend so much time learning how to dothat!")

My personal observation, when referencing my "hardcore MMO friends", is not that they specifically miss raiding. They miss logging into EQ for 8 hours a day and being automatically someone to be respected. None of them have succeeded at anything since then that made them feel that sense of hero adoration. Typically -- in the real world, you need to be really fucking good to be in the top 1 percent of anything. Succeeding at old-school everquest was as simple as logging the fuck in and being personable. Compare that to modern gamescape where to be the best requires not only an immense time sacrifice, but also some good old-fashioned blood/sweat/tears.

I think great WoW PVPers have a decent audience, its dynamic enough to be excited and the scene is small enough to have your own personal champions. But once again, the skill ceiling to be a top rated WoW Arena player is exponentially higher than "be a level cap Everquest character with some decent loot". Back in the "glory days", just rolling around EC tunnel as a level 60 would get your dick-sucked by strangers. Now all the dick-sucking casuals have much higher expectations for whose dick they will suck -- and a lot of the "old guard" doesn't like it.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
I just think if things went back to having a huge death penalty, even in raids, the format would immediately become instantly more watchable and popular on twitch, etc.
I hadn't thought of this until you said it, but I agree completely. I watch guild's raid videos to learn how to do it, not because I give a shit about their accomplishments. For me to watch in real-time, I would want an element of risk. If I knew that the guild in question was putting up something substantial, it'd make it entertaining as fuck for me to watch.

I dunno what the hell the definition people use for casual is anymore. Is it playtime or what content they are interested in? You have people in wow doing LFR for 40 hours a week and aren't interested in serious raiding. Is that a hardcore casual?
I tend to view casual/hardcore as a simple function of "time invested per week", what makes someone hardcore is the sacrifice/opportunity cost of all that time invested. Obviously, everyone has their own definitions... but if you're doing ANY hobby for forty hours a week then it seems pretty hardcore to me, since you're giving up the opportunity to do a lot of other shit.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I dunno what the hell the definition people use for casual is anymore. Is it playtime or what content they are interested in? You have people in wow doing LFR for 40 hours a week and aren't interested in serious raiding. Is that a hardcore casual?
It's a combination of a lot of things. I think it comes down to what your goals are and the effort you put into them. Who cares what label you put on things anyway.
 

a_skeleton_02

<Banned>
8,130
14,248
I agree with your sentiment to some degree but I think it's invalid when compared to the rest of the world. In almost any hobby you have people who are hardcore and casual. LOL has pro's and people like me. Football has Pros, College Stars and Flag football players. Snowboarders, Skateboarders, video game players, softball players, poker players etc. They all have different levels of competition, skill level, fame and participation.

That's the macro view of everything. So let me address your points through that lens because I think your post is somewhat condescending just as much as Xevy's post is retarded.

The MMO landscape has changed, for the better, and has allowed in millions of more people when compared to 15 years ago. It is ever increasingly hard to become the "known player" due to the population of the game and the exposure to top end players. In MMOs where you have multiple servers and no cross over, high end players have a harder time to gain "fame" or name recognition. No one watches MMO streams like MOBA streams so the only way they can feel fame is via standing somewhere and people OOOHing and AAAHing. There is nothing wrong with this, and any hobby/sport/game should have this aspect to it because anyone who puts that much time and effort into it should be recognized for it. LOL has ways of making players stand out, just like any other sport or game for the most part. Even in smaller hobbies have ways of making people known in smaller circles.

The issue here is that people, for the most part, don't give a shit about raiding anymore. Not like people did 10 years ago during Naxx or whatever EQ era people like to remember. So the top end raiders find it even more difficult to find an audience. In the end raiders want to be the best and get to the top. Part of it is the race, part of it is that it's public. The MMO space makes it very difficult to make in public.

Because it's hard to make it public to a larger audience, they tend to lash out at people who say "their game sucks" or call people "scrubs" saying their game is hard, thus justifying their time in the game. If there was a way to feed their ego and give them acclaim for their accomplishments, you probably would never see the response Xevy gave.

So the real question is, do MMOs need to change to allow and broader spectator audience? That's a huge design question. The "next best MMO" is going to create a game that is design to be both challenging and appreciative to a VIEWING audience. It'll need aspects of MOBAs and Fighter games where individual and team based skill is appreciated. That also means that PVE encounters can't be scripted sleep-inducing things.
People watch and worship high end MOBA players because they innovate tactics and win money in tournaments.
People USED to worship high end MMOS players because they innovated raid tactics and had unique items that other players would never see.

The new MMO designs of loot and the cut and dry raiding kill both of the draws of being a high end MMO player. You are no longer thinking of tactics to kill a boss you are trying to be the first group of people to do what the developer requires you to do to kill the boss.

No one cares about about your awesome chest plate or flaming sword because every player has the 10 man pug version of that chest plate and flaming sword. Sure the stats are 50% less but they don't care it looks the same. And don't tell me changing the armor set from red to green when you goes up tiers makes any difference.

Armor sets and Tokens and different versions of the same item need to go for people to start paying attention to high end raiders. No one wants to put in 40 hours a week to get a heroic version of the same fucking item he got 4 months ago with just better stats, He still will be random goof #143 in origmmar with the spikey shoulder pads everyone has except he has the HEROIC shoulder pads not the PVP shoulder pads or the FLEX Shoulder pads.

I never played Wildstar I just wanted to comment...
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
I dunno what the hell the definition people use for casual is anymore. Is it playtime or what content they are interested in? You have people in wow doing LFR for 40 hours a week and aren't interested in serious raiding. Is that a hardcore casual?
Casual: people who want loot handed to them like candy

Hardcore: people who want loot to be earned by limiting it to players who beat PVE content

Hardcore casual: people with hardcore mentality with real life constraints that limit playing time. They don't measure their self esteem by the length of their epeen. When they do get to play, they want to be challenged and rewarded accordingly when they beat the challenge.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Draegan,

I agree with most of your observations but not your conclusion. There are tons of shit people pour tons of time into that has no audience. Remember that girl who could stack cups really fast? Or a more common occurrence, some people are just super into model trains. They pursue their hobby because they enjoy it, not because they have a wide audience promising them glory if they become the best model train builder in the world. I feel like at least once a month I see something that makes me think : ("Why the fuck did that person ever spend so much time learning how to dothat!")

My personal observation, when referencing my "hardcore MMO friends", is not that they specifically miss raiding. They miss logging into EQ for 8 hours a day and being automatically someone to be respected. None of them have succeeded at anything since then that made them feel that sense of hero adoration. Typically -- in the real world, you need to be really fucking good to be in the top 1 percent of anything. Succeeding at old-school everquest was as simple as logging the fuck in and being personable. Compare that to modern gamescape where to be the best requires not only an immense time sacrifice, but also some good old-fashioned blood/sweat/tears.

I think great WoW PVPers have a decent audience, its dynamic enough to be excited and the scene is small enough to have your own personal champions. But once again, the skill ceiling to be a top rated WoW Arena player is exponentially higher than "be a level cap Everquest character with some decent loot". Back in the "glory days", just rolling around EC tunnel as a level 60 would get your dick-sucked by strangers. Now all the dick-sucking casuals have much higher expectations for whose dick they will suck -- and a lot of the "old guard" doesn't like it.
I think you took my conclusion for granted because just because there are hobbiest out there that don't care what other people thing, doesn't mean that there are more than MMO players that put time into sports/hobbies that have the same attitude. Your hardcore friend argument just goes further to prove that old Eq players were all neckbeards that should probably be completely ignored if that is all they still talk about. Unfortunately there are quite a few developers out there that are still living in that era.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
People watch and worship high end MOBA players because they innovate tactics and win money in tournaments.
People USED to worship high end MMOS players because they innovated raid tactics and had unique items that other players would never see.

The new MMO designs of loot and the cut and dry raiding kill both of the draws of being a high end MMO player. You are no longer thinking of tactics to kill a boss you are trying to be the first group of people to do what the developer requires you to do to kill the boss.

No one cares about about your awesome chest plate or flaming sword because every player has the 10 man pug version of that chest plate and flaming sword. Sure the stats are 50% less but they don't care it looks the same. And don't tell me changing the armor set from red to green when you goes up tiers makes any difference.

Armor sets and Tokens and different versions of the same item need to go for people to start paying attention to high end raiders. No one wants to put in 40 hours a week to get a heroic version of the same fucking item he got 4 months ago with just better stats, He still will be random goof #143 in origmmar with the spikey shoulder pads everyone has except he has the HEROIC shoulder pads not the PVP shoulder pads or the FLEX Shoulder pads.

I never played Wildstar I just wanted to comment...
There is a vast vast vast different between the worship of MOBA players and MMO players. You can't even compare the two of them at all. But I agree with the rest of your design theory. Watering down content is boring content.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
People watch and worship high end MOBA players because they innovate tactics and win money in tournaments.
People USED to worship high end MMOS players because they innovated raid tactics and had unique items that other players would never see.
I watch MOBA players because they're doing something that I truly believe, even if I practiced for 10,000 hours, I would never be able to do.

I do not think the same thing of top raiders. My perception, whether it is grounded in reality or not, is that raiding is fundamentally much easier than playing a game like CS:GO or LoL at a high level. Furthermore, those games offer me a dynamic viewing experience -- watching badass raiders once might be cool, but watching the same fight again? No.

I think you took my conclusion for granted because just because there are hobbiest out there that don't care what other people thing, doesn't mean that there are more than MMO players that put time into sports/hobbies that have the same attitude. Your hardcore friend argument just goes further to prove that old Eq players were all neckbeards that should probably be completely ignored if that is all they still talk about. Unfortunately there are quite a few developers out there that are still living in that era.
I was trying to speak towards why "hardcore MMO" players are so unhappy with the current state of MMOs. If I come across as condescending, its because there is no other way to say what I think: ("Sorry man, what you "used" to be good at was logging in. You were never actually "good" -- if you were, you'd have been "good" at a different game by now. And if you want people slobbing your e-peen, go get good at LoL or WoW Arena because people give a shit about that. Oh? What? Those games are for casuals? Gotcha...")
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
There is a vast vast vast different between the worship of MOBA players and MMO players. You can't even compare the two of them at all. But I agree with the rest of your design theory. Watering down content is boring content.
"Worship" is the wrong term to use. Gamers today watch MOBA streamers on Twitch for the same reason they read the old FOH forums when EQ1 raiding was the only game in town. If you want to learn how to play the game better, then you go to the Internet medium where you can acquire that information.
 

Vitality

HUSTLE
5,808
30
No, playing Dota 2 makes you hardcore. LoL is for filthy casuals.
That's what I thought, I got gold playing very very casually.

Doing well in a game just means you're good, hardcore or casual has nothing to do with it.

I've seen plenty of casual good players and plenty of "Hardcore" Noobs.

Example: I have a friend on my list who's played over 1000 games this season and hasn't broken into silver 5. Super hardcore plays every day, completely hardcore noob.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
That's what I thought, I got gold playing very very casually.

Doing well in a game just means you're good, hardcore or casual has nothing to do with it.
Unless you're a genuine 1 in a million prodigy, to be in the top echelon of LoL requires a great deal of "hardcoreness". You don't just, log on and play a few ranked games every now and then and up in D1/Challenger.
 

Vitality

HUSTLE
5,808
30
Unless you're a genuine 1 in a million prodigy, to be in the top echelon of LoL requires a great deal of "hardcoreness". You don't just, log on and play a few ranked games every now and then and up in D1/Challenger.
This is pretty incorrect, There's plenty of top tier players with challenger accounts that have 150/75 records. Rofl.

It's not that black and white, spending a "Hardcore" amount of time in a game doesn't automatically make you good at it.

There's plenty of plebians that spend hours on end in a game and are still shit.

It's the quality of the time you spend that makes you good. Spending Hardcore time by itself doesn't.

**Gold in league is by no means ultra-godly, it's better than most however, I got there in roughly 60 games**