World of Warcraft: Current Year

Chris

Potato del Grande
18,206
-337
Maybe the WoW devs tried to play too hard into it, as it drove attention and clicks into these lore channels like Nobbel, Pyromancer, and Bellular. Or maybe they fucked the story/lore of WoW explicitly so the lore analysts of WoW would get off their back.
A huge thing FF14 does well for coherent story telling is have their expansions launch with their complete story and end boss. The end boss is never in the raid either.

It's like getting S1 Game of Thrones all at once on Netflix to binge, instead of S8 Game of Thrones fed to us one dissapointing piece per week the you have to go to the movies to see the finale.

There's no time gated lore content with FF14 since the story is always complete, so the lore channels won't be able to adapt. They will die even if they stick with WoW since the sigils and cosmic forces stuff is shit and nobody likes it.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions: 3 users

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,864
6,821
Most people don't care about lore. And most games have crap lore because of that fact. Lore isn't the reason people play games.
 
  • 4Seriously?
  • 2Like
  • 1Dislike
Reactions: 8 users

Elidroth

Trakanon Raider
539
1,245
Most people don't care about lore. And most games have crap lore because of that fact. Lore isn't the reason people play games.

Lore isn't the reason YOU play games. There are A LOT of people who actually enjoy the lore. I'm not a huge lore guy either, but study after study, market research shows people actually do care about it.
 
  • 10Like
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 10 users

Chris

Potato del Grande
18,206
-337
As for borrowed power, it's pretty simple. If you add abilities/talents every single xpac, you're going to end up with a ton of bloat. You'll need to constantly refactor/rework the class to make it work (which is what they used to do, your rotation changed every xpac).
That's their narrative and they no imagination to solve it because they hired harassable thots and SJWs.

Here is what I would do:

1) Continue to add abilities and talents in a talent tree, don't redo core rotations.

2) To avoid bloat, have new abilities upgrade/replace old ones or work off the same button (eg when ability X is on cooldown the button shows ability Y, when ability X procs the button changes to ability Y).

3) To avoid minmaxing, replace/buff unpopular choices or make popular choices base abilities.

4) If you can't think of anything else to do add in a 4th spec instead of new talents/abilities.

5) If you are really stuck, just give players more talent points and no new choices so they can go deeper into a second tree.

With the same work put in, we could have had so much more. It feels like they just panicked with ability bloat and started removing and simplifying things instead of creatively thinking how to integrate everything.

Most people don't care about lore. And most games have crap lore because of that fact. Lore isn't the reason people play games.
People love the FF14 storylines and characters, the background lore just enables it.

People DO care about the lore when it jumps the shark though, like it has in WoW multiple times by now. In fact they jumped the shark with a guy riding a shark while another shark rider jumps over him.
 

Elidroth

Trakanon Raider
539
1,245
Looks like WoW Streamers and YouTubers are breaking down into two categories:

1) Personality Streamers

2) Content Streamers

Personality Streamer is when they are the attraction, not the game. Asmongold has fans funneling him memes and videos to react to and they follow him around in game which he can use to make content. These people and their communities are the happiest they have ever been playing FF14 and are seeing huge sub boosts.

Content Streamer is when they can play or analyse the game really well. Tallesin can only talk about WoW Lore in any detail, the world first racers can only play WoW at a high level. These people are facing the ends of their careers and are having these demented rants and rage fits because of it.

Now these categories are not mutually exclusive. Bellular is someone people seem to like/respect and is riding the wave of Blizzard hate right now by criticising them, he may be able to transition into FF14 if he stops making WoW Lore videos and actually gets past lv30 in FF14.

The WoW Lore analysts are probably done as FF14 isn't really doing the mystery box thing.

That Asmongold guy is annoying. I don't know why, but the few times I watched his streams, all I kept thinking was how this channel needs a counter in the corner for every time his eyebrows twitch out of control.

For a while I thought about quitting WoW, but I decided to keep playing for a number of reasons. I actually enjoy the game. I still think the raid fights are fun, and I enjoy dissecting how they did things from a game dev standpoint. I also have a lot of friends on the dev team still, and I don't think they should suffer the consequences of the decisions of those above them. I play FF14 as well sometimes, but sometimes it feels a bit overwhelming, and it IS difficult to come back to the game after I took a year off. And it's SO fucking grindy.

The category I see that got the most momentum are the virtue signaling pearl-clutching jackasses who stream about how 'completely shocked' they are at all of this, while fapping over the latest Hentai/Anime/Tentacle upskirt shit. No consistency.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 1 users

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,864
6,821
Lore isn't the reason YOU play games. There are A LOT of people who actually enjoy the lore. I'm not a huge lore guy either, but study after study, market research shows people actually do care about it.

MOST, being the operative word here. If lore mattered to MOST people then WoW would not have been the most popular game in the world. And WoW is not declining now because the lore sucks and is incomprehensible.

Niche games can focus on lore over mechanics, but their audience will always be small if the gameplay sucks.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Dislike
Reactions: 2 users

Chris

Potato del Grande
18,206
-337
MOST, being the operative word here. If lore mattered to MOST people then WoW would not have been the most popular game in the world. And WoW is not declining now because the lore sucks and is incomprehensible.

Niche games can focus on lore over mechanics, but their audience will always be small if the gameplay sucks.
WoW is declining for many reasons, but you can't say that the game being set on a nonsensical mystical bullshit continent isn't one of them.

WotLK and Legion did really well because people wanted to see the end of those storylines. Loads of people say they hated Pandaria because of the Pandas... I think that most people DO care... maybe we should say "setting" rather than "lore".
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,864
6,821
WoW is declining for many reasons, but you can't say that the game being set on a nonsensical mystical bullshit continent isn't one of them.

WotLK and Legion did really well because people wanted to see the end of those storylines. Loads of people say they hated Pandaria because of the Pandas... I think that most people DO care... maybe we should say "setting" rather than "lore".

Sure, good lore is certainly a plus. And I think a lot of players would like to have an understanding of the story behind whatever they are playing. The problem for most players is that the story usually gets in the way of the gameplay. We don't want to read a book while we're killing. Reams of text is boring.

If you can present the story in a quick fashion without forcing the player to read endless quest dialogues about obscure garbage or forced to watch long confusing cut scenes (fuck you ffxiv) then you would get a lot more people interested in the lore. Presentation is everything and most games don't just have crap lore, they also present it in the worst, most confusing and boring way possible.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Chris

Potato del Grande
18,206
-337
If you can present the story in a quick fashion without forcing the player to read endless quest dialogues about obscure garbage or forced to watch long confusing cut scenes (fuck you ffxiv) then you would get a lot more people interested in the lore.
I totally agree and it's sad that WoW used to do this before the cutscene era. You can experience story through the visuals, music and enemies, you don't need text boxes or losing character control.

FF14 does some good stuff in this area with music, dungeons and boss fights, but yeah they have too many cut scenes of side quest characters or faction leaders sat at tables talking which makes of lot of the good inaccessible.
 
Last edited:

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
18,108
6,922
MOST, being the operative word here. If lore mattered to MOST people then WoW would not have been the most popular game in the world. And WoW is not declining now because the lore sucks and is incomprehensible.

Niche games can focus on lore over mechanics, but their audience will always be small if the gameplay sucks.

Different strokes. I enjoy gameplay and lore. If one is really good, it can make up for the other. WoW is a good example of that, or was for certain parts of its history. In FF, the gameplay isn't "bad" and the lore if someone is into it they usually consider it fantastic.

Also WoW is getting some backlash for how bad the Sylvanas story and Elune reveal stuff is this patch. It's one thing for people to know the WoW lore is mish-mashed, told in books mostly, and retconned to hell...but for certain big payoffs when they swing and miss hard...people do care about it.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

nu_11

Golden Baronet of the Realm
3,058
19,961
Most people don't care about lore. And most games have crap lore because of that fact. Lore isn't the reason people play games.
Wasn’t the one of the main reasons that WoW blew up when it did was because it was based off the Warcraft universe? Blizzard did some good world building in Warcraft 3 that got people hyped up to play in that specific world.

Hell I was a kid who played The Frozen Throne at release for the story and I was super hyped for WoW’s release.
 
  • 8Like
Reactions: 7 users

xmod2

<Gold Donor>
721
1,147
It was always my contention that the old school MMO gamers were all closet lorefags. They were drawn to the idea of an online world full of other people, not gameplay systems. WoW, up until WotLK, had the draw of people coming from WC3/TFT who wanted to see the storyline resolved. It was cool seeing the scar going up through eversong woods into Silvermoon, etc. The systems/gameplay people were antagonistic to that, and have since taken complete control over WoW. Their idea of lore is to take the idea of 'being a unit from WC3' and expand it to being a hero from WC3, which nobody wanted.

EQ lore was always fun because it was less in your face than the MSQ style WoW and FF14. Everyone could co-exist.

That being said, I really didn't give two shits about the weeb-y FF14 story until I met Emet-Selch.

1627755176159.png
 
  • 12Worf
  • 2Like
Reactions: 13 users

Chris

Potato del Grande
18,206
-337
It was always my contention that the old school MMO gamers were all closet lorefags. They were drawn to the idea of an online world full of other people, not gameplay systems. WoW, up until WotLK, had the draw of people coming from WC3/TFT who wanted to see the storyline resolved. It was cool seeing the scar going up through eversong woods into Silvermoon, etc. The systems/gameplay people were antagonistic to that, and have since taken complete control over WoW. Their idea of lore is to take the idea of 'being a unit from WC3' and expand it to being a hero from WC3, which nobody wanted.

EQ lore was always fun because it was less in your face than the MSQ style WoW and FF14. Everyone could co-exist.

That being said, I really didn't give two shits about the weeb-y FF14 story until I met Emet-Selch.

View attachment 364851
Haha what the fuck? That pic is amazing! Zodiark did nothing wrong.
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
Most people don't care about lore. And most games have crap lore because of that fact. Lore isn't the reason people play games.
alright meltie time

Lore was genuinely the last thing keeping me in the game. Raiding with friends was fun but when you're only raidlogging then why are you paying 15$ a month for a subpar product? Lore kept me grounded in the world that I treated like a world rather than a game.

Lore was the one connection I had left to my favorite game world that I've spent 20 something years in since wc3. I mean they've all but moved on from the world of Azeroth as it is, BFA was on Azeroth but that's only cause somebody had to stop somebody from cramming 3 more expansions worth of world building into one single expansion rather than take their time like they did in that expac.

But all that's happening is I just want to experience the Scarlet Crusade making cleanup efforts to reclaim Lordaeron. I want to witness those orcs in southern barrens finally figure out how to build a simple wooden bridge after 10 years since cataclysm. I WANT to witness the defias brotherhood rise again and try to infiltrate parts of stormwind for a revenge that they never got. I want to see NPCs acknowledge the planet-sized sword sticking out of Silithus - I mean you can literally see it from Orgrimmar and not a single fucking person other than Mangi has even mentioned it? I want to see how the night elves cope with losing absolutely everything and how they are dealing with the fact that they were just genocided into being homeless begging for shelter.

I want this evolving world of Azeroth that actually reflects what has happened in the story. Even if the story is shit, there should be an effort made in the WORLD of warcraft to make the world a main character of the game again.

But you know what we got? some dude that thinks season 8 of game of thrones was good writing and then watched Avengers Endgame 5 or 6 times and thought Thanos' story was really fucking cool and forgot the part where Thanos was a character written for over a decade and had EXTREMELY clear goals rather than "Oh god there's infinity stones, oh god we can't let Thanos get them, oh god there's one last infinity stone we should take it directly to Thanos' house, oh god Thanos has all the infinity stones and is gonna remake reality as we know it" which is literally what happened with the Jailer in a span of THREE HOURS. All of that completely ignores that 60% of the story is unavailable to you as a player if you only pay attention to the game.

And you know what the worst part is? They have the audacity to rewrite these characters that were written 2 decades ago and fundamentally change huge aspects of Warcraft 3 (and even 2 to some extent) just to tell their new 3 months of story.. a story that they are going to completely throw in the garbage when 10.0 comes around. They couldn't even just let me have the memories I have of Warcraft 3 in the story of Shadowlands. And that's just the story, they couldn't even just let me re-experience Warcraft 3 as a game because they fucking ruined that since they are incapable of shipping games as much as they are incapable of seeing anything past short-term profit.

I just want to go home. I'm not invested in the grand cosmic scheme that changes once a year. I'm not interested in bigger and bigger god-power threats. I don't want to be on another plane of existence that invalidates literally everything we've done up until that point. I just want warcraft back, but it's never coming back.
 
  • 8Solidarity
  • 5Like
  • 1Truth!
Reactions: 13 users

Big Phoenix

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Gold Donor>
44,621
93,171
Problem with lore is there isnt any reason why at a minimum your story shouldnt at least be serviceable. When its as atrocious as WoW's current story it just becomes a monumental fuck you to the playerbase and shows how little the developer cares about the quality of the game.
What are you a dick pic museum curator?
Its all in the Rav thread. Though the actual picture of Cam's goblin cock isnt there anymore iirc.
 

nu_11

Golden Baronet of the Realm
3,058
19,961
It was always my contention that the old school MMO gamers were all closet lorefags. They were drawn to the idea of an online world full of other people, not gameplay systems. WoW, up until WotLK, had the draw of people coming from WC3/TFT who wanted to see the storyline resolved. It was cool seeing the scar going up through eversong woods into Silvermoon, etc. The systems/gameplay people were antagonistic to that, and have since taken complete control over WoW. Their idea of lore is to take the idea of 'being a unit from WC3' and expand it to being a hero from WC3, which nobody wanted.

EQ lore was always fun because it was less in your face than the MSQ style WoW and FF14. Everyone could co-exist.

That being said, I really didn't give two shits about the weeb-y FF14 story until I met Emet-Selch.

View attachment 364851
Emet Selch is the first great Final Fantasy character in a long time
 
  • 6Like
Reactions: 5 users

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
2,605
4,143
Emet Selch is the first great Final Fantasy character in a long time
Emet-Selch is the only antagonist in the top 10 of Final Fantasy characters according to an NHK poll in Japan, and came in at 6.

Sephiroth came in at number 11. Let that sink in for a moment.

Meanwhile in WoW, characters are evil because they are corrupted. Corruption all the way down.

corruption.jpg
 
  • 6Worf
  • 1Like
Reactions: 6 users

Malkav

French Madman
2,686
1,583
Emet-Selch is the only antagonist in the top 10 of Final Fantasy characters according to an NHK poll in Japan, and came in at 6.

Sephiroth came in at number 11. Let that sink in for a moment.

Meanwhile in WoW, characters are evil because they are corrupted. Corruption all the way down.


The fucking hack Danuser wished he had 10% of the praise Ishikawa got for Shadowbringers.

 
  • 4Like
  • 1Solidarity
  • 1Truth!
Reactions: 5 users