World of Warcraft: Current Year

In a sense you're right, but I'm talking about the ability to log in and play a bug-free game with characters that move smoothely and a game that never crashes. WoW was this during beta. Up until that point, and the trend continues, companies would use Beta as an additional bug-testing period. This simply wasn't the case, even during beta, with WoW as the vast majority of players experienced zero game-breaking/leveling bugs. You were essentially free to enjoy the game as it was meant to be enjoyed; this is what I mean by polish. 99% of MMO's don't offer the intended experience at release.

Click to expand...

Pretty much. The only big issue that stands out is when WoW first launched there was horrible loot lag, although they got that fixed relatively quickly.

The loot-ski?

That was a fucking olympic sport. I want that shit back.

Cybsled_sl said:

Pretty much. The only big issue that stands out is when WoW first launched there was horrible loot lag, although they got that fixed relatively quickly.

Click to expand...

EK and Kalimdor used to crash plenty during Vanilla. I'll agree there weren't a lot of game breaking bugs in general, but game definitely would crash quite a bit from time to time during most of Vanilla. The loot lag got fixed pretty quickly though.

It depends on if you want to include server issues. Mal'Ganis and several other servers were down for close to a week. A guildmate of mine was unable to access a character for weeks after some odd crash in an instance. My entire internet would cut out completely after turning in every third quest or so. (This was months into release) Then there were standard bugs like resource nodes being fucked, mobs being stuck in evade mode, quests not completing properly etc... Overall it was a pretty smooth launch, but certainly not 100% free of shit.

Best MMO launch I've experienced was Rift. I don't remember a single problem.

Nirgon_sl said:

I'm doing some reading here, and I poked through the openraid.us site. How in the fuck do you go about getting into a rated bg team if you don't already know people running them? Spam trade? Yeah like that works .

Click to expand...

I sat around in Durotar looking for a low MMR team to get started. I ended up finding a really good pug BG leader that constantly pulled guys up to 1650+ so they had a better chance at going further with a structured team. The goal is to not stay with your low MMR starter group, but move up once you've got the gear and the CR. Took me 3 weeks, got my Mal weapon and a bunch of other shit and my CR is now 1650, I won't push it further this season but will continue to play with my current group for giggles till next season. In the process of all that, I've got to know quite a few of the other structured team leaders and have the potential to move around. If you're a great player that puts in the gearing effort, knows their shit, you won't lack for people to play with.

I miss when gear was described as Tiers where you had both set pieces and random pieces. I stopped playing when ilevel started being a thing from gearscore. Oh nostalgia.

Tmac47_sl said:

My first character at release was a Marksman Hunter. Yeah, that's right. I leveled as Marks...at release...when this was next to impossible. WoW was haaaaaaard.

Click to expand...

Same, although I never found it that hard. You just had certain levels where you pet couldn't hold aggro for shit...and eventually it could never hold aggro. Kiting was key.

Tmac47_sl said:

Frustrating and annoying = hard in this case, haha. Especially in areas with roaming aggressive mobs.

Click to expand...

I just fired up the WoW vanilla emu server and rerolled a warrior, and also recently bought MoP (been bored recently, OK). In vanilla, I probably died 3x on the first dungeon crawl in Elwynn forest, I died to murlocs in the lake, I had to group for the named mobs or I'd die, needed to watch for pats and multi-pulls etc. All through Pandaland, I don't think I was ever in danger of being close to death once. Didn't talk to anyone in the world either. It's quite a change. The combat systems now are more complex, I guess, but the world design of vanilla was much less forgiving - and I really think it added something to the game.

We all complain about grinding out bear asses, but I honestly was more involved in a quest to kill 10 mobs in a vanilla cave with my lvl9 warrior worrying about repops, safe areas to pull, dodging pats and ninjaing past 2-packs (or managing potions and cds to kill them) than I was in any quest in MoP. Not to say that MoP wasn't fun, I loved the humor and theme and some of the mechanics were interesting. But if I was building a new game and wanted people to invest in their characters and get addicted, I would build it more like vanilla. I would also recommend anyone talking about the launch experience or nostalgia to fire up the emu, it's free, and see how rose-colored your glasses are.

I think there's a link to some census site in the thread on this forum - I would say it was moderate, I probably ran into 20 different people leveling over the course of 5 hours or so. Not sure how many are at max level, I imagine it drops off pretty steeply, but it sounds like there are some guilds closing in on clearing MC.

malaki_sl said:

I just fired up the WoW vanilla emu server and rerolled a warrior, and also recently bought MoP (been bored recently, OK). In vanilla, I probably died 3x on the first dungeon crawl in Elwynn forest, I died to murlocs in the lake, I had to group for the named mobs or I'd die, needed to watch for pats and multi-pulls etc. All through Pandaland, I don't think I was ever in danger of being close to death once. Didn't talk to anyone in the world either. It's quite a change. The combat systems now are more complex, I guess, but the world design of vanilla was much less forgiving - and I really think it added something to the game.

Click to expand...

Cool story bro.

Lets have a look at a few things that pretty much invalidate the bullshit you're spewing. You've stated that it's the world design in vanilla that made it tougher, then talked about combat mechanics (which haven't changed at all since vanilla).

Firstly, the vanilla warrior is a vastly different beast than the warrior of today. Two abilities that come to mind, Victory Rush and the reworked Second Wind. These two abilities (in their current incarnations, and Victory Rush altogether) never existed in vanilla. The reason you never felt threatened in MoP is because you have these abilities. Second Wind makes a warrior pretty much unkillable, which is why it's getting toned down a little bit in 5.2.

Jade Forest in MoP was pretty cruisy, by the time I hit Townlong Steppes, shit started to hit hard, real hard -- and pulling more than 2 meant cooldowns had to be used to prevent a death (depending on class and spec), my Blood DK just gives no fucks and pulls everything, my Arms warrior the same, my rogue had to be selective, and my warlock had to have the right pet out for the task.

The final reason (and in my honest opinion, the real reason) you never felt threatened was because you're actively trying to take a shit on MoP (and assuming you made it to 90) you'd remember that there were Virmen types that stacked a bleed so fast, and hard, you'd die in seconds if you pulled 3. The area those Virmen are in is PACKED with them as well, so pulling more than one was always on the cards. Respawn times are fast enough that you can't afk through the area, and slow enough that you don't get zerged right from the start. It's either your memory is selective to give weight to your opinion, or you're just flat out lying.

There's rare mobs in MoP that are capable of 1-2 shotting even raid gear 90s, you can kill these 90 rares under leveled and under geared if you know how to deal with their abilities and your class (that silly monk bitch in Townlong Steppes with Spinning Crane Kick, Chi Burst and Healing Mist. There was nothing in vanilla with the complexity of some of the rare spawns in MoP, and while they are not really that complex, they sure beat the shit out of Hogger.

A level 9 warrior in vanilla doesn't have any fucking cooldowns to pop, they don't even have defensive stance. Put down the crack pipe and step away, or, you know, actually look at things subjectively instead of trying to ride the nostalgia train to nowherefastland.

Also PvP server... There's tons of players in the upper level game doing dailies and what not, making places like Townlong, the Wilds and Dread Wastes a fucking death trap (and a shitload of fun).

Sabbat_sl said:

Cool story bro.

Lets have a look at a few things that pretty much invalidate the bullshit you're spewing. You've stated that it's the world design in vanilla that made it tougher, then talked about combat mechanics (which haven't changed at all since vanilla).

Firstly, the vanilla warrior is a vastly different beast than the warrior of today. Two abilities that come to mind, Victory Rush and the reworked Second Wind. These two abilities (in their current incarnations, and Victory Rush altogether) never existed in vanilla. The reason you never felt threatened in MoP is because you have these abilities. Second Wind makes a warrior pretty much unkillable, which is why it's getting toned down a little bit in 5.2.

Jade Forest in MoP was pretty cruisy, by the time I hit Townlong Steppes, shit started to hit hard, real hard -- and pulling more than 2 meant cooldowns had to be used to prevent a death (depending on class and spec), my Blood DK just gives no fucks and pulls everything, my Arms warrior the same, my rogue had to be selective, and my warlock had to have the right pet out for the task.

The final reason (and in my honest opinion, the real reason) you never felt threatened was because you're actively trying to take a shit on MoP (and assuming you made it to 90) you'd remember that there were Virmen types that stacked a bleed so fast, and hard, you'd die in seconds if you pulled 3. The area those Virmen are in is PACKED with them as well, so pulling more than one was always on the cards. Respawn times are fast enough that you can't afk through the area, and slow enough that you don't get zerged right from the start. It's either your memory is selective to give weight to your opinion, or you're just flat out lying.

There's rare mobs in MoP that are capable of 1-2 shotting even raid gear 90s, you can kill these 90 rares under leveled and under geared if you know how to deal with their abilities and your class (that silly monk bitch in Townlong Steppes with Spinning Crane Kick, Chi Burst and Healing Mist. There was nothing in vanilla with the complexity of some of the rare spawns in MoP, and while they are not really that complex, they sure beat the shit out of Hogger.

A level 9 warrior in vanilla doesn't have any fucking cooldowns to pop, they don't even have defensive stance. Put down the crack pipe and step away, or, you know, actually look at things subjectively instead of trying to ride the nostalgia train to nowherefastland.

Also PvP server... There's tons of players in the upper level game doing dailies and what not, making places like Townlong, the Wilds and Dread Wastes a fucking death trap (and a shitload of fun).

Click to expand...

Cool story bro. Tell us more about how leveling is so hard in MoP.

Sabbat_sl said:

Cool story bro.

Click to expand...

My point about combat mechanics is that they've added a few dimensions to make rotations more challenging, and even require more thought than just your normal damage rotation to defeat an encounter. Purely a positive for the modern game, I agree it's better than hogger.

My main is a shaman, and I can tell you I never used hex to mitigate a pull ever during leveling where I said to myself 'man, I need to kill those mobs but I'm just not powerful enough to take them both at once. Maybe I should cc one'. I had to use healing tide a few times when I would get chance dazed training 5 mobs running straight to question mark on my map, ascendance'd once or twice to burn down some triples, but that's about it (and I have what, fire ele, bloodlust, instant hex, nature damage totem, more 5min cds? I didn't play cata so probly missing some). Maybe ele shaman are OP in the leveling game. I don't think having to have the right pet out for your warlock means that it's hard. I'm level 90, haven't finished off the Dread Wastes yet, but have done all the other zones completely. There is nothing that would kill me in 3 seconds, or else somehow I managed to disarm it through pure good looks. I did 85-89 on Sargeras as horde, which is a 90% alliance server (got killed by a hemo rogue, apparently they gave them another stun?!). I did do 89-90 on Illidan which is the opposite, since I had gotten in touch with the old guild by then. In any case PvP is a tangent to my point.

The point is that MoP felt to me a theme park, it was fun, it wasn't challenging, I never had to invest any time and/or thought into how I was going to beat anything. Vanilla was a huge timesink, yes, and certainly less interesting from a combat perspective, but also much less forgiving of any mistakes you made. If you want to talk about ganking, let me tell you about 10min gy runs to the horde camp in hinterlands. If you want to talk about difficult quests, let's talk hogger - and how it's literally impossible for you to kill him solo at the normal level. There is no parallel in MoP. Sure, if you're camping a rare spawn for the achievement, there might be an encounter that a skilled player can beat but finds challenging. Hogger doesn't care how good you are at handing Spinning Crane Kick (or Chi Burst, I mean omg right), he will kill you. Dungeons in vanilla will repop on your face if you pull three mobs to the same spot without moving, which you have to do because there's packs you can't beat. This does not happen in MoP.

Another stat I might introduce is time to completion of quest. Vanilla might be on one wrong side of ideal, but MoP is certainly on the other. I know a given quest will probably take me less than 5min in MoP, probably 5-10min for a 4-pack of killing normals, clicking some ground drops, killed the named and freeing the prisoners. Half the quests in vanilla take 5 min just to get to where the quest mobs are. I don't think it's bad for the stage that WoW is in, necessarily - we've been playing the damn thing for 8 years and don't want to spend time staring at the same thing for another 10 days played like we did, just give us 20 hours of fresh-ish stuff. But if I was making a new game, I would slow down the pace, increase the grind in a challenging way, and generally bring back the sense that leveling is difficult rather than an entitlement. Nobody plays to level anymore, they level to play; I think that's a problem with the genre.

mkopec_sl said:

Calm down there, fanbro.

Click to expand...

Remind me to quote this right back at you the next time you start cheerleading shitty_MMO_that_isn't_WoW_82374823478923

Tmac47_sl said:

Combat is in fact very different. Whether it be PvP or PvE. Combat changes drastically with every expansion. Look at Burning Crusades and you'll see a lot of the dungeon pulls require CC whereas Cataclysm took a more zerg approach to dungeon raiding. Even leveling has become a completely different beast as every class has gained combat abilities that heal and/or make solo'ing easier and more viable.

You don't sound like you know what you're talking about.

Click to expand...

Normally I'd just let this slide, but you capitalised Cataclysm, which means you thought about it before you typed it. Cataclysm dungeons had the most CC needed in them since BC heroics. If you'd said Wrath heroics, or MoP heroics, you'd be right.