World of Warcraft: Current Year

Xexx

Vyemm Raider
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Heroic fights in wow are hard indeed but they aren't worth a shit, unless they change loot in wow so that doing heroic encounters gives a special tier of loot and not just more stats it never will be anything but bragging rights. I bought the expansion already but under no circumstance will I play again unless that is changed. It may not seem like much but heroic challenges do require much more effort and attention than normal encounters, and as they currently are implemented it's just not worth it to me.
 

Dandai

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
5,909
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If Vanilla WoW got harder raid wise anywhere it would have been due to a few fights

Twin Emps
C'Thun (huge amount of co-ordination not to kill your entire raid
And Naxx+

I can't imagine anything in EQ requing the co-ordination of a vanilla Sapph or Kel'Thuzad. Say all you want about A team and B team there were fights that just flat don't allow you to have a B team, and that is particularly true as the expansions rolled on. Pre Nerf Kil'Jaden? Hell pre nerf anything in Sunwell, or Illidari Council, or Vashj, or Kael'thas. One "B" team member fucking up a feather on Archimonde or a derp on a cleanse = ye bye raid attempt.

It kept scaling but people actually surprisingly got better. The fights just keep getting more and more intricate. In my life I had never done so much dodging then Heroic Siegecrafter Blackfuse as one of the first 50 Western 25 man guilds to do it. It makes everything from prior expansion look like a fucking joke, but I still remember the struggle of Kil'Jaeden. Shit just keeps getting harder I can't even guess what this expansion will have, some of the fights from Pandaria were getting crazy.

Bro, you're obviously not paying attention. That's not skill - that's memorizing a fight. EQ is where the real difficulty was at. You had to coordinate people and shit. These guys know that you're full of shit and just trying to make yourself sound awesome. They did Blackfuse in LFR, and he was super easy.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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There's a difference between skill and learning a fight. Skill requires the ability to think and act on the fly to counter random acts. Not memorizing a rotation.
That's your very own definition of skill. And even with your own definition, you are still wrong when you say it takes no skill due to the random nature of many events that happen during raids. Regardless that's an incredibly limited definition, memorizing complex patterns and applying the correct solution to any given pattern within a very limited amount of time apparently is not skill, it's... something else?

Basically you're just trying to say "pve=dumb, pvp=skill" I assume, which is a fairly weak argument but one that can be somewhat defended. But the argument boils down more to "pvp requires more skill" than "pve requires no skill". It's an argument that is only relevant when talking about playing against equally skilled people too, in many cases playing against a newbie requires even less skill than playing against shitty AIs.
 

Antarius

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,828
15
..And that same question has been asked a bunch lately -Just go here and check it out.
I ended up just logging in to play it... Ret seems like a nice change from MoP/Cata, I hated keeping Inquisition up, I'm glad they moved that ability to an optional talent, Overall I'm very happy with where it currently is in the beta.

Haven't yet checked out Prot, I do like how they finally had plate have BOTH int AND str... FINALLY... IF I decided to resub, having to carry 5 gear sets was absolutely retarded...

This intro zone seems kinda weird though, a lot of the quests reward skills... but skills that we would already have at 90... Maybe for people that use the automatic character boost to 90 so they don't have to visit the class trainers anymore? I'm sure everyone else already knows the question, just confuses me.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
That's your very own definition of skill. And even with your own definition, you are still wrong when you say it takes no skill due to the random nature of many events that happen during raids. Regardless that's an incredibly limited definition, memorizing complex patterns and applying the correct solution to any given pattern within a very limited amount of time apparently is not skill, it's... something else?

Basically you're just trying to say "pve=dumb, pvp=skill" I assume, which is a fairly weak argument but one that can be somewhat defended. But the argument boils down more to "pvp requires more skill" than "pve requires no skill". It's an argument that is only relevant when talking about playing against equally skilled people too, in many cases playing against a newbie requires even less skill than playing against shitty AIs.
I enjoy PvE more and don't PvP much at all. Also you say it's my own limited definition of 'skill' well your own definition of 'complex patterns's is limited. All you need to do is ask yourself would heroics be hard if you did them as a single player. No. It's just hard to get 20 people to not be lazy. The most skillfull thing in WoW PvE is managing a raid group.
 

Antarius

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,828
15
Yea, WoW has a strange dichotomy, on one hand LFR (at least in cata, not sure how LFR was in Mists since I never did it) was so surprising simple, literally half the raid could and did AFK though it, while heroic content is probably harder skill wise than any other video game, period, putting something like Dark Souls to absolute shame. And Yes, I'd say PVE at times has been harder than PVP... Depending on if you were a flavor of the month class or spec for arena. (anecdotal proof: I have gladiator, I don't have any world first kills). The skill required to play your class continued to rise every expansion AND the encounters became more complex, so more and more people just hit a skill cap where they could either play their class well, or avoid screwing up the mechanics of the encounter, but not both.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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I enjoy PvE more and don't PvP much at all. Also you say it's my own limited definition of 'skill' well your own definition of 'complex patterns's is limited. All you need to do is ask yourself would heroics be hard if you did them as a single player. No. It's just hard to get 20 people to not be lazy. The most skillfull thing in WoW PvE is managing a raid group.
They would be relatively hard yes. Obviously a lot of mechanics a group based, but still it takes some time to learn the patterns and perform appropriately the entire encounter. I think the comparison to Dark souls is relatively accurate. Is Dark Souls hard? Meh, once you learn the fights, it's pretty easy. It's still enjoyable because before you reach the stage where it becomes easy, it's actually challenging, until everything clicks together. WoW as a single player game would be the same. Yes you'd beat everything much faster if it was solo because for every failure check, there would only be one player to check for them, instead of 10, 25, 40, whatever. To say it'd take no skill though, I don't know, it seems pretty stupid.

On the complex patterns, I guess most patterns are very simple and I didn't express that correctly, I should have said something more like the complexity from the multitude of simple patterns. Let's say in an encounter you have a ground effect that you have to get out of, say fire. This is a simple pattern. Fire is under you > move. Now let's say there's a pattern that's like, move away from the boss or move close to the boss. That's a simple pattern. If you have both at the same time however, it means you need to move out of the fire in a specific direction, not any way you like. Still simple though. Now let's say you have an aoe that forces you to get out of the raid. Now you have to get out of the fire(and not step into it), move away from the boss but at the same time move away from your group.

The patterns pile up like this, with varying degrees of complexity(not that complex though, the most complex ones tend to be "kite this shit" since the force you to do something for an extended period of time). You have to move out of the fire, while changing targets when something happens, while moving away or close to the boss, while moving away from the raid, while kiting some thing if you get targetted by it, while moving counterclockwise in the room. While performing your main job, which at this point is probably all muscle memory anyway(unless you're a healer, then it's whackamole with a bit of reading ahead to start heals appropriately). For 10minutes with single mistakes being wipes in general. Lots of simple patterns pile up, with semi random frequency, some come at exact times, some come after the cooldown is over but whenever the boss feels like doing it and they generally all have various timers and targetting concepts.

I don't know why you'd consider this type of gameplay devoid of skill. What exactly would you consider being a skill based game if that's the case and you're not gonna use the pvp card? I'm kinda curious what you'd consider difficult or that requires your skill from your own definition.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Just watching that raid video made me want to pick up wow again. Dem feels.

Games like Starcraft Id say require a lot of skill.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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Just watching that raid video made me want to pick up wow again. Dem feels.

Games like Starcraft Id say require a lot of skill.
But not the PvE or low level PvP though, which is what I mentionned before. I think playing pro in most competitive games requires more skill and training than raiding in wow does, but PvE wise it's pretty high on the list and vs casual pvp stuff it's also as high or higher depending on the skill level you're at. While I can easily find games that I'd consider harder and requiring more skill than wow raiding, I'd say a fairly large majority requires less, a lot less, even not accounting for the group specific stuff and just on a personnal level.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Honestly, WoW used to be a lot more skill based than it is now with insta-gib mechanics. The logistical and leadership issues are largely the same, and memorizing fights (or at least reactions to events in the fights) is the same as it's ever been. In vanilla,TBC and to a lesser extent WotLK, I feel there was more opportunity for good players to salvage declining attempts through superior play. In most cases you have bosses measured in number of wipes for your raid crew to get their ass together. That said, very few guilds have ever hadallall-stars (especially in 40 man days). Using the same type of 'improvisation' you might attribute to PvP play, superior players could use game mechanics to squeeze seconds or minutes out of an encounter enough to finish it off 'ahead of the curve' in raid attempts.

I think it all changed when healing became a game of efficiency instead of reaction. Consider under the older paradigm, abilities frequently did severe damage for sloppy play, but could only be mitigated by proper cooldowns and a talented healing crew to triage mistakes. Since the change to the 'forgiving' health pool in Cataclysm and Pandaria with emphasis on healers managing resources instead of targets, Blizzard has had to resort to more instant-death or wipe mechanics in order to properly penalize sloppy play for 'hard' bosses. I think it's a subtle change over time, to be sure. I just see a lot more DDR and reliance on perfection now and a lot less room for a scrappy group of good players to make a difference. So I suppose it's not so much 'harder' as it is that skilldoesn'tmatter so much in PvE anymore, you just have to push it to all 230 attempts instead of finishing at 215 by having 5 rogues rotate evasion tank at 18% long enough to pop a second heroism while a dps warrior breaks out a shield and taunt kites the add in the back of the room.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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Sounds a bit contradictory, if you need to be 100% perfect now while before you could salvage mistakes, it would mean it requires more skill now. Would also mean that before you could sometimes kill a boss with a good streak of luck(right people still alive, boss not targetting the same person multiple times in a row meaning they could fail several times and not impact the progress of the fight) while now that margin is gone, making the content unkillable by lesser skilled people. I do however agree that it might have been more fun to be able to do these, but I wouldn't say it required more skill, in general. It only meant skilled players could cover for people's mistakes sometimes.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Sounds a bit contradictory, if you need to be 100% perfect now while before you could salvage mistakes, it would mean it requires more skill now. Would also mean that before you could sometimes kill a boss with a good streak of luck(right people still alive, boss not targetting the same person multiple times in a row meaning they could fail several times and not impact the progress of the fight) while now that margin is gone, making the content unkillable by lesser skilled people. I do however agree that it might have been more fun to be able to do these, but I wouldn't say it required more skill, in general. It only meant skilled players could cover for people's mistakes sometimes.
But being 100% perfect on the macro-level is about iterations not actual personal skill. It's letting all 20 people get their last few fuckups out of their system until they have experienced and mastered every permutation. It's not really 'skill' it's just accounting for variability by learning from experience. Of course different players learn at different paces so you'll have top world guilds doing it in far fewer attempts with worse gear. However, more encounters pre-Cata allowed flawless play to overcome losing what otherwise would be vital players (be it tanks, dps or heals). I think the giant 'fuck you' abilities now and the complexity of 12 million more whirling AOEs in an attempt to add 'difficulty' by making the simon-says a few blinks longer has really just made it harder to shine. I think simpler is better. Blizzard lost their way when they decided more shit to dodge like those crazy Japanese side scroller shooting games was the way to make things difficult.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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If it's all so easy then why do so many people suck at it?
I call that Reverse Dunning-Kruger (although it's in the original study, but everyone focuses on the bads). While people who are bad at stuff think constantly overestimate themselves, the good ones always think they're about average or barely above.
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
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Oh wasn't really arguing better or worse, just skills and specifically mechanical skills. It doesn't require great strategy or deep thinking, mostly conditionning and repetition but it's a pretty high level in that regard, similar to bullet hell shmups yeah. Wether that's good or bad depends on people but saying it requires NO skill it quite a leap, that's what started the discussion. I don't play wow anymore, haven't for several years and have very little interest in playing it again for the raiding(if I played again, it'd be to level in the cata zones, see the pandaria shit and do some casual LFR before leaving after a couple of weeks). I just don't care about raiding anymore. But I had fun when I raided(for the most part at least) and thought it was quite challenging even on a personnal level.
 

Pooch

Lord Nagafen Raider
87
28
All this talk about EQ raids and Vanilla raids has me thinking about how much I really do miss the 'good ole days" I swear phase 5 as a ranger on the inny fight was a fucking blast. chain snareing and leashing multiple mobs as the rest of the raid killed inny. which got me thinking how i loved all the EQ classes so much more than any MMO since. simple yet just complex enough that if you had enough of X class you could really break any encounter in the game.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
Heroic fights in wow are hard indeed but they aren't worth a shit, unless they change loot in wow so that doing heroic encounters gives a special tier of loot and not just more stats it never will be anything but bragging rights. I bought the expansion already but under no circumstance will I play again unless that is changed. It may not seem like much but heroic challenges do require much more effort and attention than normal encounters, and as they currently are implemented it's just not worth it to me.
Tier 17 has three different sets - LFR is non-tier with a simpler look, Normal/Heroic are typical tier sets, and Mythic has ornate tier sets. Your e-peen is secure.
 

Fingz_sl

shitlord
238
0
The common use of the word skilled is like for a "skilled" carpenter. Someone who can cut a straight line, know which wood to use for studs, can hammer a nail in without bending it, etc.

Knowing which button to press is a skill. It's not brain surgery but it's still a skill.

Talent is like: me and Stephen King both write, but Stephen King has talent.

Talent is someone who can press keys at super human speeds, like those Korean guys in StarCraft.
 

Xexx

Vyemm Raider
7,472
1,664
Tier 17 has three different sets - LFR is non-tier with a simpler look, Normal/Heroic are typical tier sets, and Mythic has ornate tier sets. Your e-peen is secure.
Will wait to see how it's differentiated, my e-peen is not easily satiated.
 

Kuriin

Just a Nurse
4,046
1,020
If Vanilla WoW got harder raid wise anywhere it would have been due to a few fights

Twin Emps
C'Thun (huge amount of co-ordination not to kill your entire raid
And Naxx+

I can't imagine anything in EQ requing the co-ordination of a vanilla Sapph or Kel'Thuzad. Say all you want about A team and B team there were fights that just flat don't allow you to have a B team, and that is particularly true as the expansions rolled on. Pre Nerf Kil'Jaden? Hell pre nerf anything in Sunwell, or Illidari Council, or Vashj, or Kael'thas. One "B" team member fucking up a feather on Archimonde or a derp on a cleanse = ye bye raid attempt.

It kept scaling but people actually surprisingly got better. The fights just keep getting more and more intricate. In my life I had never done so much dodging then Heroic Siegecrafter Blackfuse as one of the first 50 Western 25 man guilds to do it. It makes everything from prior expansion look like a fucking joke, but I still remember the struggle of Kil'Jaeden. Shit just keeps getting harder I can't even guess what this expansion will have, some of the fights from Pandaria were getting crazy.


So, I am going to agree with you and disagree with you. Everquest did not have mods to assist the players in playing the game whereas WoW is all about modding. I'm not going to say it makes a HUGE difference. HOWEVER, there are (were?) some mods that actually told the players when to get out of something, when to prepare something. So yes, WoW is very intricate in the bosses. Lets see how difficult they will be without mods.