World of Warcraft: Current Year

Rime

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Can't the game just be good and then they milk the whales with overpriced cosmetics?
That requires the game being good, which means you need to have experienced developers and people with a vision.

All they have are Yes-Men and people trying to get into the business. Blizzard has hemorrhaged talent in the last decade, with the last three being catastrophic.
 

Araxen

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That requires the game being good, which means you need to have experienced developers and people with a vision.

All they have are Yes-Men and people trying to get into the business. Blizzard has hemorrhaged talent in the last decade, with the last three being catastrophic.

I see a lot of people on other forums spout that Blizzard has some of the best game developers in the world, but that really isn't true anymore. The majority of the top talent is gone.

I do wonder what happened with Tigoles. They released a Overwatch Dev teaser update today, and there was no good bye or acknowledgement of him. Something happened that they won't even recognize him.

I expect Activision-Blizzard is just Activision very soon.
 
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Cybsled

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Ya, seems like legitimate conclusion that the separation of Jeff and Blizzard probably wasn't 100% mutual.

I do agree that Activision will continue to assimilate Blizzard. Blizzard as a name will continue to exist so long as the brand name remains profitable.
 
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xmod2

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Having the best game developers attracts a lot of people who are fans of the company, more than they are the kind of people who make the company renowned. Eventually the original developers leave and all you're left with are people who want to "work for Blizzard". Doesn't help the companies exploit this and pay under market rates because they know people will accept them due to perceived status / dream fulfilment.
 
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BoozeCube

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I mean we've all watched it happen, all of the talent that produced the IP's and games we loved to play are all gone, none of that remains at the company. Plus there is no new games, IP, or anything in the development pipeline that looks promising or holds anyone's interest.

This is why we're all biggest sellers this company can release is rehashed versions of their old games remasters, WC3, WoW Classic, Diablo 2 - All these games came from a time when gamers with passion worked at Blizzard so much so that they reign head and shoulders above the new sterile play by numbers games of today.
 
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jayrebb

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Asmongold is much calmer tonight. Interested to see if he does what he told the WoW community to do, which is to WoD the situation and relentlessly talk (code for flame developers) about 9.1 until you get to Legion.

That's part of why he's come under fire, to add some context. He's advocating for "nonstop talk". and that's what's got large amounts of people on his social media accusing him of destroying sense of community and the slander of developers.
 
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Big Phoenix

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That's part of why he's come under fire, to add some context. He's advocating for "nonstop talk". and that's what's got large amounts of people on his social media accusing him of destroying sense of community and the slander of developers.
Real shame he doesnt show himself unsubbing from WoW and encouraging others to do the same until the problem is actually fixed.
 

Bondurant

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I don't think rampant incompetence or lack of talent are the real problem here: art, music, raids and other aspects of the game show they're still capable of doing quality stuff. I'm pretty sure the issue here lies with decision-making and leadership: things like conduit energy, covenants lock are bad decisions for everyone: it frustrates players, taint Blizzard reputation and doesn't magically inflate player retention.

I know some people are gonna say "they create problems to implement solutions as content in later patches". Call me naive but don't believe they're doing that on purpose, people remember more their months long frustration than some QoL change late in expansion. I think it's more like mediocre leadership leading to bad decisions. It's especially possible when veterans leave (or are laid off) and replaced with newcomers who don't have much power in their hands.

There's also the topic of feedback, where issues raised during alphas / betas are still around months or even years after expansion releases. We know they hear it, so where's the problem? It seems they have the "film critic" bias, where some directors grow disdain over those who they only see as "earning money by criticizing my work". If your movie is topping the box-office while being panned by critics, would you care about those critics?
 
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j00t

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my DM for our weekly dnd game has a single tenant that drives every decision that is made in the game, whether by the players or himself: "are we having fun?"
if you're having fun, then everything is good. sure, experiment with some stuff because same same same gets boring and then people stop having fun. but when you experiment with new stuff, the very first thing you need to ask is whether or not it's fun. and then you keep asking that because if it's not fun, who cares.

at some point, as a creator and a developer it becomes incredibly easy to lose sight of that question, especially when you are dealing with a budget and a board of suits. but the bottom line is if you made a game, and people are not having fun, it's your job to address that.
 
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Neranja

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Can't the game just be good and then they milk the whales with overpriced cosmetics?
That would require humans making the decisions to make a game for, well, humans. Currently the spreadsheets and psychopaths* are making the decisions.

There is a whole industry of management who pride themselves in squeezing out as much money as possible out of a game and/or franchise. Make no mistake: those are parasites, because in the end they kill their host.

*) You may think this is hyperbole, but this is hard, very factual truth based on game theory. Not like in video or board games, but the mathematic field developed primarily by the US at the RAND corporation to win the cold war. The only two types of people that make only rational decisions are economists and psychopaths. A Venn diagram may show a significant overlap. Doesn't help that one of the leading figures of game theory was diagnosed with schizophrenia and had paranoid delusions.
 
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Mist

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I think most of the things that get complained about are not actually the things holding the game back. Conduit energy is stupid, but it doesn't impact everyone. Covenants being a difficult meaningful decision is not a game breaking issue.

Most of the veteran players I know that came back to the game quit for 1 reason that's never even mentioned here: Too many hotbar buttons and often ridiculous dps rotations. And these are people who were top 1% players in TBC or WOTLK, not random casuals.

This game can be frustrating as fuck and frequently quite exhausting to play unless you're a class that just hits 4 buttons. When combat is a chore, everything else becomes a chore as well, including all the things that are literal chores.
 
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Cybsled

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Blizzard took the feedback poorly and reduced abilities overall years ago. Shit that you can click and use every now and again is fine (like eye of kilrogg). People just get salty about in combat abilities that are frequently used.
 

Daidraco

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I think most of the things that get complained about are not actually the things holding the game back. Conduit energy is stupid, but it doesn't impact everyone. Covenants being a difficult meaningful decision is not a game breaking issue.

Most of the veteran players I know that came back to the game quit for 1 reason that's never even mentioned here: Too many hotbar buttons and often ridiculous dps rotations. And these are people who were top 1% players in TBC or WOTLK, not random casuals.

This game can be frustrating as fuck and frequently quite exhausting to play unless you're a class that just hits 4 buttons. When combat is a chore, everything else becomes a chore as well, including all the things that are literal chores.
I guess for some classes it is like that - but as a prot pally, that wasnt my complaint. In fact, I really enjoyed playing a prot pally this expac. I dont necessarily think conduit energy itself is the gripe, but is used as an example. People quit for a multitude of reasons, but I havent seen a general hate/dislike for the game this bad since WoD, and as timepasses.. its definitely getting worse. Some people kept playing late into WoD, similar to how I think you're still playing SL's right now - but a lot of people have quit and it wasnt even that far into the expansion when they did. I could understand mayflies, but this many people just cant be blamed on that alone.
 
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jayrebb

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I think most of the things that get complained about are not actually the things holding the game back. Conduit energy is stupid, but it doesn't impact everyone. Covenants being a difficult meaningful decision is not a game breaking issue.

Most of the veteran players I know that came back to the game quit for 1 reason that's never even mentioned here: Too many hotbar buttons and often ridiculous dps rotations. And these are people who were top 1% players in TBC or WOTLK, not random casuals.

This game can be frustrating as fuck and frequently quite exhausting to play unless you're a class that just hits 4 buttons. When combat is a chore, everything else becomes a chore as well, including all the things that are literal chores.

How's the current Fury rotation I haven't kept tabs on them in years.

Are they a 4-button class since rework?
 

Lodi

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How's the current Fury rotation I haven't kept tabs on them in years.

Are they a 4-button class since rework?


Rampage > Execute/Exec procs with venth > EB procs > BT with less than 2 stacks of EB > rinse > repeat. Keep reckless and BS on CD(use only when enraged). Bout it for their dps. It flows surprisingly well and is actually one of the more enjoyable feeling specs, imo.
 
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jayrebb

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Rampage > Execute/Exec procs with venth > EB procs > BT with less than 2 stacks of EB > rinse > repeat. Keep reckless and BS on CD(use only when enraged). Bout it for their dps. It flows surprisingly well and is actually one of the more enjoyable feeling specs, imo.

That's what I'm hearing. Asmongold recently went Fury as well so I started to become curious. He's been grinding gear lately for it.

DH mobility is just a liability in SL with the affixes and mechanics, flying around all over the place just isn't for me anymore. I quit my MM at 222 and I guess I'm going to shelve this DH at 221. Fury looks overall the pace and flow I want. The only thing I do is keys so Fury seems like a natural fit.

Bunch of people are going Fury I saw in chat also may as well join 'em in 9.1 whenever that drops.
 

Neranja

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Most of the veteran players I know that came back to the game quit for 1 reason that's never even mentioned here: Too many hotbar buttons and often ridiculous dps rotations. And these are people who were top 1% players in TBC or WOTLK, not random casuals.
Let me start by stating that one hard lesson to swallow in game design specifically, and in general life, is that there isn't just that one single reason why people quit. For most people, it is a combination of reasons--at least when it is not due to external forces like "I had to move and I don't have internet yet". They just voice that one primary reason on the front of their mind that made them vocalize the feeling they have when playing the game. But if that was the only problem and they had enjoyed the rest of the game, then they wouldn't have quit the game that easily.

This is also the reason why I don't find using player data and metrics, e.g. about the "absolute certain point where players dropped off from the retention graph" that S Secrets managed that helpful. But I'll circle back to that topic, like you Americans like to say nowadays.

Nonetheless, they do have a point, but it isn't only the button bloat with each expansion and the more complex combat rotations. Of course, one-button combat rotations like frost mage, or the infamous TBC BM hunter macro went away with WotLK at the latest, but I think no one cries tears of sadness for them. Blizzard even pruned a lot of abilities post-Pandaria, and players bitched a lot the pruning went too far. Ability-wise, every talent spec has a page defining six core abilities, everything added on top should be situational, utility or fluff. Sometimes it also has a passive, for example, Atonement for disc priest.

Now for why your friends quit, I am going to assume what happened was this: The game evolved into quick, twitch-based, reactive combat. And not necessarily the good kind. Let me go over some points when comparing the core gameplay loop to its Classic iteration:
  • Most specs have at least one proc. Blizzard of course flashes things on your screen for them, but that is maybe even counterproductive to a well-made WeakAura for spec-specific things.
  • Players have to keep track of more things. One of the worst I think are Dot-cleave specs that need some sort of display for individual targets. Nameplates or extra addons alike.
  • Fights finish quicker, at least for normal enemies, and there is no real downtime between fights. The game doesn't force you to take breaks anymore.
  • The outworld on the other hand had its skill requirements reduced, sometimes bordering on insulting. It doesn't feel like a world where you defeat dangers and overcome odds. It starts to feel like a visual novel.
  • However, in dungeons and on boss fights players have now to keep track of enemy abilities like casts, AoE's, or other special abilities. Blizzard sometimes does a shit job of conveying this visually to the player, at least in the default UI.
The last point is a pet peeve of mine. Blizzard doesn't have a "Consistent Visual Language" as FFXIV does, of what is happening, and what the expected reaction is from players. And I am not the only one who noticed that. This also came up when a WoW encounter designer dissected an FFXIV raid encounter. You don't learn the game, you learn individual "dances". And these dances become more and more complex, some bordering on elaborate Bollywood routines. It's pretty telling when players explain boss mechanics with terms like "stack up like in that one other boss fight" and not "stack up because of a meteor."

To circle back to the player data analysis: Those are pretty helpful, but only if you know how to analyze and interpret them in the context of the game. They can highlight some pain points and differences in design and player expectations. But they don't tell the whole picture. This is trying to funnel all the reasons into a "monocausal problem" bucket. Alleviating and/or outright removing them all may or may not make the game better. It even may lead to decreased player retention: The players that had quit at the first point could be quitting at a later point because it's just not their type of game. All while the players in your core target audience leave because the game has been stripped of all their expectations for that type of game.

This is what players call "the character" or the "soul" of a game. In the end, streamlining it long enough makes anything into a round ball, and in the end essentially interchangeable with other, similarly polished games. It also explains precisely why Blizzard was dumbfounded by the success of WoW Classic: "We had a product but made it better and easier and more accessible over the years. All according to our data, management, and of course the consultants we paid a lot of money for. But now people still like the old, unpolished version! Why?" Maybe you shouldn't have listened to the consultants that tried to sell you something without knowing your domain-specific problems and challenges.

Sorry that I rambled on again. Maybe I should make videos of those and post them on a Youtube channel.
 
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Cybsled

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The last point is a pet peeve of mine. Blizzard doesn't have a "Consistent Visual Language" as FFXIV does, of what is happening, and what the expected reaction is from players. And I am not the only one who noticed that. This also came up when a WoW encounter designer dissected an FFXIV raid encounter. You don't learn the game, you learn individual "dances". And these dances become more and more complex, some bordering on elaborate Bollywood routines. It's pretty telling when players explain boss mechanics with terms like "stack up like in that one other boss fight" and not "stack up because of a meteor."

I do like how FFXIV does that. As you progress through the game, it teaches you what all the symbols mean. It starts basic with simple concepts like spread apart, stack up. Then it goes to other more complex types.
 
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kaid

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I do like how FFXIV does that. As you progress through the game, it teaches you what all the symbols mean. It starts basic with simple concepts like spread apart, stack up. Then it goes to other more complex types.
Yes they should at least be more consistent over the look of things such as you need to soak this or you need to stack for this or you need to GTFO from this. They teach you to not stand in stuff but then lots of exceptions on various fights with various effects so its hard to know without reading the journal what you are supposed to do until you do it wrong and explode.
 
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