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I guess all the fun comes from breaking the rules and figuring out something that wasn"t supposed to work that way. I can understand that. But from a dev"s point of view, that sucks because that means you fucked up on your end of the job.

I could call for the same thing about you since we disagree so fundamentally about what we think an MMO should have or be. You love EQ and can"t get away from anything that isn"t EQ related. Is there any MMO that Brad McQuad hasn"t had a hand in that you"ve played for more than 2-3 months? Just...

Your freedom is just broken mechanics Tad.

All the freedom of EQ was from shitty coding.

Gaereth you"re taking this argument back into semantics like what Tad did a few pages ago.

You just created an enchanter type of class or whatever you want to call it. You just created a dungeon that would almost require a person who could bypass content. I know I wouldn"t do that dungeon unless I had that guy that could get me through that. Regardless of the examples. You"re still...

Yes and it"s difficult. Instead of making things simple, Tad is complicated by expanding the Holy Trinity to the Holy Quadality (is that even a word?) where you need Tank DPS Healing and Ninja Edit: @Genjiro Stop with the FD pulling crap. Tad is the biggest Monk homer ever, and you"re...

I think it"s pertinent to use WOW examples since most people can easily recognize them. WOW got an incredibly large amount of things right in my opinion, which I havn"t found in any current MMO, which is why I still play it. All your climbing abilities are fine and dandy. Throw them in the...

Now that made me laugh.

Fixed.

You care about this thread? Theres really nothing of substance in this whole thing. I think there was a Yankees vs. Redsox derail back a hundred pages or so.

Except you havn"t added anything other than vapor in this argument. You throw out buzz words like obsolete, old, stale and DONE RIGHT yet offer nothing to back up your claims. Either share some of your super duper ideas that I"m pretty sure 100s of devs have thought of already, or just stop...

You"re still gonna get people playing Tanks, Healers, Damage. And pre-reqs for any of the good skills are gonna force you down a certain path anyway. Skill Based systems only allow for more useless hybrid builds. Dev"s still have to account for certain abilities in their dungeons no matter which...

I disagree with this. How is specializing and choosing classes different? You choose a class when you start the game. You specialize in skills as you level up, making choices along the way. One requires more choices than the other. However in the end, each system allows you to do one thing or a...

Much of your post was semantics making it difficult to read. You"re not a lawyer are you? Damn. Anyway, can we stick with Class System and a Skill System. Class system meaning that you are a specific archtype that fills a specific role. Skill system meaning you can go any path you wish within...

Well I hope your sekret design docs are awesome because you still havn"t answered anything about how you take away the classical archtype roles associated with Fantasy gameplay, healer, dps and tank. Elemental resists? C"mon. Ok I don"t cast fireball, I cast iceball. You"re still nuking. No...

I"m happy with the class system just like it is in WOW. I don"t like the EQ2 system. I have yet to find a skill based system I like. There are people here saying the if a skill based system "DONE RIGHT" would alleviate the need for certain classes or whatever. No one has given me a solution...

When I said "I"m still waiting", I meant, "I"m still waiting for someone to give me a good example of.." Fury doesn"t count because thats a god awful PVP MMO.

EVEs system sucks though. I"m still waiting for a skill based system that will allow people all this wonderful freedom of selection where you don"t need certain ability oriented players to do certain dungeons, encounters etc.

I havn"t read them in years, so thats why I said "I think". LOTRO? No one in battle I guess. But I didn"t bring that one up. You ignored my other two examples nicely though. The reason why most games (that arn"t PVP related, or heavily instanced) don"t have collision on is because it"s so...

Dragonlance Series, Wheel of Time Series, Some of the Feist books (I think), just to name a few.

Wodin speaks the truth.

You do stuff like that on a limited basis with some WOW quests. Chase around a mob and get him to 50% and you talk to him again and he give you an item then disapear, this item is "SuchandSuch guy all tied up". It"s gimmicky. What do you want? A scripted event in an instance where you go in...

Usually those types of things only work in single player games. We don"t have the tech to create a dynamic world where you can effect and change your environment on a permanent or semi permanent basis.

I say it"s impossible to do and keep the game interesting. No matter what you"re still going the majority of the player base gravitate too a few specific builds that might as well be classes. Can you give me a scenario where this does not happen? So no, I can"t figure it out for myself. So...

You"re not listening to what 2bit is saying. He doesn"t care that there is a swimmer skill that you can learn. He and I want to know how you can develop a skill based system where you don"t gravitate to dps, tank, healer, nuker and create content that keeps you from doing it. Saying there"s a...

Meh, oops.

The only way you can move away from the standard min/max group/class makeup thats prevalent in today"s MMOs you need to implement dynamic content. I don"t think todays technology can create GOOD, on par with WOW encounters, content that changes each time you confront it so it"s always new...

All those ideas seem pretty boring. I want to build up and spend time on my character so he can swim better or climb better? Naaah.

I don"t want to read a 100 page design doc. How do you set up skills so you don"t gravitate to a certain subset? What kind of encounters can you design around not being good at fireball or swinging a club? Are we still talking about an MMORPG at this point?

You really just talked about what you deem as issues, but not solutions. I"m still waiting to see what you think is the right way of doing things.

EVE skill based system only works for checks and balances because if you go one way, you can"t go the other because it will take you a year of real life time to change. It"s still the same system. I will now go back and see what you wrote about "DONE RIGHT".

Thats really fucking stupid. I really don"t know what you mean by "DONE RIGHT". Or what poorly implemented skill based systems are. Or what Lack Of Content Diversity (or LoCD for you noobs) you are refering too. Can you explain what your ideal situation is. Then perhaps me and 2bit will...

The reason why EVE skill system works in their game is because you can"t actively change your skills or make yourself better. You just have to wait. There are no other options. Which is why most people find EVE boring.

Yup. In the skill based systems I"ve played in (MUDs basically, I never bothered with UO) all you had were the same builds. You still had Healers, Nukers, Meleers, backstabbers etc. Everyone ended up with the same skills, and were essentially the same class except in name. Everyone has a...

Thats a skill based system, which is not a bad system at all. Just different. You start running into how you handle stat allocation as you level up however since a typical Paladin archtype requires more than Str and Stam etc. One system I played in at one point in my MUD days was pretty...

You"re just a grumpy old EQ player. They are not old, they are not inefficient and are not obsolete. They are what defines a Fantasy MMO (or any other fantasy based RPG).

Why do people keep saying mana mechanics, class mechanics, group mechanics are all broken? They seem to be working fine in an ever increasing MMO market. Just because you"re tired of it doesn"t mean it"s broken. I have no problem with people switching classes as a game mechanic I guess. It"s...

I think he needs a friend, he keeps coming back and reading this read.

Well I"m sorry there sir, how would you like me to entertain you this evening?