2 years later... the almost sad state of MMOs in the new era

Cybsled

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Let see how popular the new World of Warcraft prog servers are. This will be really interesting to see if they end up being popular. Granted, its WoW and not EQ, but still WoW circa 2004 is like night and day from the WoW we have today.

I have a feeling they will make a killing.

Doubt it. Your prime audience are going to be:

1) Nostalgia people
2) kids too young to have tried wow back in 2004/2005
3) people who are curious because they joined wow late

Once the novelty wears off, you’ll see a big crash in population. Nothing cures nostalgia faster than suddenly remembering all the shit you hated, because nostalgia usually just filters the good stuff.
 
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Rathar

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See also hitting lvl 52 on a P99 server for supporting evidence of above claim. :p
 

Neranja

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Nothing cures nostalgia faster than suddenly remembering all the shit you hated, because nostalgia usually just filters the good stuff.
Its funny to me because a lot of the prominent Youtubers capitalizing on the WoW Classic bandwagon didn't even hit 60 in vanilla. They know jack shit about the endgame.

But they found a lot of private server heroes feeding them bullshit like "you need to have a /sit macro as a warrior so you can trigger enrage at any time", which wasn't a thing ... ever.
 

Neranja

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For instance, with EverQuest, it is arguable that many people liked EverQuest up through Planes of Power if not through Omens of War.
Because PoP increased the speed of gameplay dramatically, enforcing the need for slows and reaction time.

At which point can you just admin that you felt left behind by the change to a more twitch-based gameplay? By the way, you are not alone: the WoW crowd has the same problem.

Gaming in the MMO world has evolved from "sitting in your ass, pressing a CH-macro button every 10 to 15 seconds on your second box cleric alt to keep the main tank alive (who is AFK) and watching your main auto-attack while you slowly kill Emperor Ssraeshza in what is clearly designed as a 30 minutes test of endurance" to a more reactive gameplay laden with the need to react to events and make split decisions. Not standing in fire, what a novel concept!

I know clerics who requested that you form your CH chain macro text a specific way, so that their Macroquest script could pick up on it. Because then they didn't even want to watch the screen. And they mained a fucking cleric, didn't even have a second box. Clearly they wanted to do something else then play the actual game.
 
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Pharone

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I'm not going to argue whether some people prefer twitch game play in a MMORPG or not. All I know is that I don't prefer twitch game play in MMORPGs. And, that's based on playing twitch based MMORPGs off and on for the past decade. They are fun for a while, but then I end up longing for the less twitchy style of EverQuest.

Again, that's just what I like. I'm not saying that everybody out there is like me.
 

Vlett

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Honestly I think the good games have a healthy mix of both. Twitch and laid back.

I find the more laid back environments will give me time to give a shit about the community I'm playing with, especially when we pull off a huge "twitch moment" win.

My wants/needs are rarely in line with what is popular, and I've accepted it.
 
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mkopec

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Button mashing every 1/2 second gets on nerves. But then auto attack gets boring too. But I do think that EQ had jsut the right mix, maybe a little more button mashing would of been cool, but you had your normal boring efficient pulls, but then every once in a while you always had that oh shit moment where you had to pay attention and do the right thing at the right time.

WOW IMO was too spammy for my tastes. I wish it was sort of in between the two.
 
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Neranja

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Let me show you the pink elephant in the room everyone was polite enough not to mention:

Games as a whole have evolved in the direction of the preferences of their target audience. And that is muscle memory/twitch based. Even in single player RPGs we have games like Dark Souls, the epitome of "sure there are character stats and items, but pushing the right button at the right time matters more".

We old people simply don't invest as much money into games as kids with access to moms credit card, so is it any wonder developers are seeing us as a primary target audience? This will only change when either someone puts the foot down on microtransactions targeted at kids (either because parents grew up with technology and wise up, or by law), or we have an indie studio develop another EverQuest. In a browser or something.
 

Pharone

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That is actually one of my biggest gripes about twitch-based games in any genre that refers to itself as some form of RPG. If your character's success/failure is more based on your ability to perform twitch gaming than the character's stats, then it isn't truly a Role Playing Game... at least to me.

To me, a true RPG should be more based on the decisions you have made along the way in building your character than it should on your ability to hit buttons. If the game is more based on your ability to hit buttons than the decisions you made in developing your character, then why even have character development in the first place?

But, again, I'm not saying that your preferred style of game play is wrong. I'm just saying that it does not meet my definition of RPG game play.
 

gshurik

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That is actually one of my biggest gripes about twitch-based games in any genre that refers to itself as some form of RPG. If your character's success/failure is more based on your ability to perform twitch gaming than the character's stats, then it isn't truly a Role Playing Game... at least to me.

To me, a true RPG should be more based on the decisions you have made along the way in building your character than it should on your ability to hit buttons. If the game is more based on your ability to hit buttons than the decisions you made in developing your character, then why even have character development in the first place?

But, again, I'm not saying that your preferred style of game play is wrong. I'm just saying that it does not meet my definition of RPG game play.

RPGs are like Sci-Fi, it covers a massive area in terms of styles and aesthetics. The idea behind character building is so that mistakes made in the twitch component are easier to rectify and skillful gameplay is rewarded. Whilst I agree that character building should be the foremost important aspect on success in an RPG, I do think things like skillful gameplay and good tactical awareness should have an impact on success.
 

Neranja

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But, again, I'm not saying that your preferred style of game play is wrong.
I think you have misconceptions about my "preferred style of game play." I am just the harbinger of the bad news, and tell you the reason why no one makes games anymore for people who can remember that games used to be different.

Also, while RPG combat shouldn't be solely twitch-based, it should have the notion of you taking command and making decisions in the spur of the moment. The real old school RPGs used to live only on this tactical combat. We started to see realtime combat with the advent of 16 bit computers and games like Dungeon Master.

Standing around and clicking a button every 1.5 seconds is like telling your character to swing the sword. But at the same time standing around and watching your character swing his arms to simply wait for the enemy to run out of HP, just so you can fill another 0.01% of your bar for the next AA point seems equally stupid. There should be a middle ground somewhere.
 
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mkopec

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That is actually one of my biggest gripes about twitch-based games in any genre that refers to itself as some form of RPG. If your character's success/failure is more based on your ability to perform twitch gaming than the character's stats, then it isn't truly a Role Playing Game... at least to me.

To me, a true RPG should be more based on the decisions you have made along the way in building your character than it should on your ability to hit buttons. If the game is more based on your ability to hit buttons than the decisions you made in developing your character, then why even have character development in the first place?

But, again, I'm not saying that your preferred style of game play is wrong. I'm just saying that it does not meet my definition of RPG game play.

There can be a nice mix of RPG and twitch based combat, take for example a game like Destiny or Division. Both of those games rely heavily on RPG systems ( RPG light) to gear and level up your character over time and yet the combat is entirely twitch based. Way more so than any mmorpg. I played the shit out of those games and did well in them. In both PvE and PVP. I resent the notion that some of you are making that some of us are old and cannot compete in twitch based environments anymore. Thats bullshit. But to me MMORPGs are a different monster. Even the spammy ones are not really twitch games, because of auto targeting auto lock type combat. In fact I would not consider these games twitch at all. Banging hotkeys in some order, to produce the most amount of DPS, is not twitch. In order to have real twitch gaming you need to decouple combat from being an auto target system into a trgetable system in which you have to target your enemy then pop off your skills and hope they hit, this is where the twitch skill comes in. This is why in my previous post I mentioned button mashing, and skill spamming, because this is all it is to me. In fact some of the ARPGs are more twitch than any mmorpg will ever be, because in some of them at least you have to aim.

To me RPG simply means role playing game, where you take on a role of some protagonist or hero and through RPG systems you develop that character over time through leveling him/her up and equipping higher and higher tier loot.Thus getting stronger and stronger over time. It has nothing to do with types of combat the game employs. I already showed you how games like Destiny do exactly this, although in an entirely different genre, FPS.

I tend to like the more slower, decision based tactical combat in mmorpgs which employ this auto target system.Especially in a group setting. Make combat complex through the use of CC, debuffs, buffs, AOE, PBAOE, DD, heals, PULLING etc...mana and other type energy management, and aggro management. Not button spamming some rotations over and over while dancing around and jumping like a clown avoiding puddles of green on the ground. this to me ends up being more tedious than complex or tactical.

This also goes into the content itself, this is why EQ IMO was better than any mmorpg since, even the trash was powerful and relied on teamwork to take down. It wasnt a solo game where you mindlessly and pretty safely went from hub to hub killing weak enemies by the dozens. There was a sense of real danger everywhere you went which added that drama and stress at times and also relied on teamwork more.
 
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Pharone

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All really good points.

I agree that it needs some level of user-based control (or what some of us are calling twitch game play). It shouldn't be just hit auto-attack and go make a sandwich.

It's just that if I have to hit a button to make my character dodge a big swing by the mob, than my character's agility is based solely on my real world ability to see an in-game queue and react by pressing the right button. That takes my character's agility stat and any bonuses from buffs, equipment, etc out of the formula. In essence, my character's agility is no better at level 100 than he was at level 1. That's not character development.

At the same time, if you see that the boss mob seems to be directing it's hate in a general direction and you recognize that as maybe not being the best place to be at the moment, than it should be upon the user to make that decision to move out of that spot.

So, I guess what I am saying is that there is a balance that I would like to see game designers work towards.

Example:
  1. BAD = Having to hit a button to dodge out of the way of a mob's attack every couple seconds with a microsecond to figure out you need to do that
  2. GOOD = Having to move out of the spot where BillyBadAssMob is casting a fireball spell
 
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Neranja

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I resent the notion that some of you are making that some of us are old and cannot compete in twitch based environments anymore. Thats bullshit. But to me MMORPGs are a different monster.
I phrased that totally wrong, but it's difficult because I want to avoid writing gaming manifestos no one wants to read.

So, basically it's not that older people cannot compete in twitch combat, they more often than not prefer not to--at least not in the MMO genre. Multiplayer is a whole different beast.

Excursion: What is the difference between MO and MMO? My unfounded opinion:
  • Multiplayer Online (MO): focuses on multiple people playing with or against each other (FFA or Team-based) on a dedicated map for a certain goal or objective. There is no one else but the players, and maybe NPCs/Mobs. PUBG/Fortnite falls into this category, as do MOBAs.
  • Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO): you (or your group) have a certain goal, like killing a raid boss or exploring a dungon, but you may meet different players or groups which do not have the same goal in your world. Sometimes these other players/groups even have a different opinion of how you are going to spend your playtime, resulting in PvP or clearing the dungeon you wanted to explore before you.
So, to come back at my point: In MMO space you can often differentiate people in their playstyle by their preference: The so called Tab-Targetting (F8 for you EverQuest players) or Action Combat (like Tera). The older generation is used to the former, while the newer generation is used and prefers the latter. In countless Youtube videos showcasing upcoming MMORPGs you can find comments like "tab-targeting? not interested."

In multiplayer, even with RPG elements (for example the "Looter Shooter") you can easily have twitch-based combat. MOBAs have "skillshots", FPS have aiming and sniping etc. The same is just a tougher sell for older MMORPG players.
 
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mkopec

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And thats fine, this is why we have multiple games, not just one. If you like action type combat, go play action type game XXX, if you like the old school target lock combat, go play game YYY.

The whole thing boils down to will a game based on old school target lock, slower paced combat revolving around group synergy and tactics, more dangerous world etc will be self sustaining and profitable? My thoughts are that it will. Many of you say that it wont, and this is why companies are not investing in them anymore.

I feel if a game like this comes out, and is actually good, not shit tier unfinished, broken. It will sell and it will have tons of people playing and paying.

Also a point I will make is that since EQ we have not gotten a good type EQ game since. So we dont know how many people are into that type of game, all I know is that emu servers, and EQ progression servers are still popular to this day, some 20 yrs later. Nitche? Yes, but still popular in those circles. Also this new style actiony MMORPG has been done to death after WoW and only a few ever made it to popular status, and still only hold a small % of WoWs population.

I also have a feeling that the post WoW players that still play mmorpgs, Im betting that some would even come over to an old school game like this, because while slower paced, its still a different experience that they never played and that might attract some players away from the WoW type action games.
 
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Daidraco

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Example:
  1. BAD = Having to hit a button to dodge out of the way of a mob's attack every couple seconds with a microsecond to figure out you need to do that
  2. GOOD = Having to move out of the spot where BillyBadAssMob is casting a fireball spell
I'm not quite sure I see the difference in the two... Its still reactionary, and you're still dodging in both scenarios. Are you just talking about the frequency? If you are talking about frequency, then yes, I'm on your page.

Out of all the single player games I've played, I can count on one hand the amount of games that require me to use a rotation constantly. I cant for the life of my understand why MMO developers think that rotations are a good way to keep a player engaged. When to me, the cornerstone of an MMO is socializing and enjoying working with friends in order to achieve something within that game. Good friends and team mates keep me engaged through their conversation, not the spam of a perfect rotation. You cant talk in voice chat during a "super srs guyz" raid, so typing is the second method. But you cant have any meaningful conversation that way because if its "super srs guyz", then you have to be on your A-Game with perfect rotation execution.

So if a developer would slow down the frequency of everything, then we would be well on our way to having a more enjoyable game across the board. If I need to dodge things every few seconds, then why am I just not dodging every fucking swipe that comes my way? Dumb. If magic is so powerful and rare, then why does my most powerful spell need to be cast once every 2.5 seconds and only does a small amount of damage? Dumb. A highly trained fighter can only go a handful of rounds before they are gassed, so where am I finding the stamina to do this backflip, stab you in the eye, kick you in the balls combo every 2.5 seconds? Dumb. I'm not asking for ultra realism here, but it wouldnt hurt to stay a bit closer to realism in this case.

You shouldnt need to dodge a physical attack unless the tank is fucking up. Magic should be near-unavoidable and count on your resistance check more than you moving. Skills and Spells should cost you most of your stamina/mana and be extremely powerful. Stamina and mana regen having a slow regen rate in combat, and an extremely fast regen rate outside of combat. Buffs on party members should last until they leave the group or raid. Buffs on people outside of your raid / group should last an hour or more. Debuffs going through a resist check, but once they are on the mob - they are on the mob till it dies or exits combat. DoT's going through a resist check, but once on the mob, spread to other mobs without the need to tab / cast, tab / cast and last until dead or they exit combat.

They are making things more tedious, more spammy in order to keep the game engaging and it only succeeds in being tiresome and annoying. A skill or a spell that has more importance than being cast every 2.5 seconds also makes it more valuable in a well timed situation. Adding a small layer of strategy. I can fit every other part of an RPG into this, and create in depth and challenging combat in an MMO. Its all in the frequency. We increase the frequency, and it gives us more time to do more than try hard on on a fucking four button rotation.
 
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Pharone

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I'm not quite sure I see the difference in the two... Its still reactionary, and you're still dodging in both scenarios. Are you just talking about the frequency? If you are talking about frequency, then yes, I'm on your page.
Yes. I am mainly referring to frequency.
 

Pharone

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Out of all the single player games I've played, I can count on one hand the amount of games that require me to use a rotation constantly. I cant for the life of my understand why MMO developers think that rotations are a good way to keep a player engaged. When to me, the cornerstone of an MMO is socializing and enjoying working with friends in order to achieve something within that game. Good friends and team mates keep me engaged through their conversation, not the spam of a perfect rotation. You cant talk in voice chat during a "super srs guyz" raid, so typing is the second method. But you cant have any meaningful conversation that way because if its "super srs guyz", then you have to be on your A-Game with perfect rotation execution.

So if a developer would slow down the frequency of everything, then we would be well on our way to having a more enjoyable game across the board. If I need to dodge things every few seconds, then why am I just not dodging every fucking swipe that comes my way? Dumb. If magic is so powerful and rare, then why does my most powerful spell need to be cast once every 2.5 seconds and only does a small amount of damage? Dumb. A highly trained fighter can only go a handful of rounds before they are gassed, so where am I finding the stamina to do this backflip, stab you in the eye, kick you in the balls combo every 2.5 seconds? Dumb. I'm not asking for ultra realism here, but it wouldnt hurt to stay a bit closer to realism in this case.

You shouldnt need to dodge a physical attack unless the tank is fucking up. Magic should be near-unavoidable and count on your resistance check more than you moving. Skills and Spells should cost you most of your stamina/mana and be extremely powerful. Stamina and mana regen having a slow regen rate in combat, and an extremely fast regen rate outside of combat. Buffs on party members should last until they leave the group or raid. Buffs on people outside of your raid / group should last an hour or more. Debuffs going through a resist check, but once they are on the mob - they are on the mob till it dies or exits combat. DoT's going through a resist check, but once on the mob, spread to other mobs without the need to tab / cast, tab / cast and last until dead or they exit combat.

They are making things more tedious, more spammy in order to keep the game engaging and it only succeeds in being tiresome and annoying. A skill or a spell that has more importance than being cast every 2.5 seconds also makes it more valuable in a well timed situation. Adding a small layer of strategy. I can fit every other part of an RPG into this, and create in depth and challenging combat in an MMO. Its all in the frequency. We increase the frequency, and it gives us more time to do more than try hard on on a fucking four button rotation.
I think you and I are wanting the exact same kind of game. Everything you said is right on point.
 

Neranja

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this is why companies are not investing in them anymore.
I wouldn't expect anything in that field from big to medium companies, at least not the western ones. Bioware got burned hard on SW:ToR, and parent EA is the reverse Midas of MMOs: not only cancelling development on UO2 but also squandering any UO street cred they once had. Ubisoft once tried to bring EQ servers to Europe and failed hard, with SOE taking players back in. Sony even sold off SOE, and Blizzard realized with the failure of Project Titan that they weren't innovators but polishers of existing concepts.

So we are basically in indie-land. But MMO projects take time and money and good project management, things indie developers are not known for.
 
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