2 years later... the almost sad state of MMOs in the new era

a c i d.f l y

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What I'm reading is everyone wants Skyrim online (not TSO, so no classes) with some actual difficulty, or areas with increased difficulty. Skyrim itself would have been 10x better if it had more challenging content instead of just getting obscenely easy.
 
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Mick

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I could careless about darkness. Once everyone has a light source is negates the whole thing.
 

nevergone

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I could careless about darkness. Once everyone has a light source is negates the whole thing.

The idea relies on consumable items (torches, summoned light, etc) and class abilities. You could still go into dark areas without bringing those classes or the items, but you'd be at a steep disadvantage from an environmental perspective - not to mention you could give combat bonuses to enemies if you don't sufficiently light the areas, even including the chance for additional enemies to spawn from the darkness. Think of something like spider filled warrens with holes in the walls they climb out of - if your party keeps the lights up, the enemies are somewhat kept at bay.

Obviously this would be negated by items having intrinsic light source effects, which is why those items should either not be available, extremely rare, or class restricted.
 

Ukerric

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For a pve model I would like to see something like uo back in the day. Full on skill based, classless system. The more you use something you level up that skill, thus opening up new branches upon reaching certain milestones. Everyone could have, say 3-5 major skills and 3-5 minor ones. So for instance you put one point into fireball, you continue to level up the fire ball making it more powerful and at the same time opening up new paths on a skill tree to take that fireball skill and mod it, for example fireball becomes forked fireball with 3 projectiles, or it becomes a meteor, etc... This system of course would have to have some sort of balance, for example the more in magic you spec, the less weapon choices are available to you, same with armor. Maybe layer in a stat system, so that in order to have good magic skill you need tons of wiz or int, but then you cannot have so much str to wear that heavy armor, or use 2h swords efficiently, etc...
One of the things you could work with is the dual Path-Skill system underlying the Legend of Randidly Ghosthound litrpg webnovel.

It's an hybrid classless/class system.
  • You discover basic skills by doing stuff, like Cooking by cooking recipes, Running by... running, etc.
  • You gain skill points by using them, based on the circumstances vs your skill (you gain more progress on Dodge if you are in melee with lighter armor; you gain more XP doing cooking in the field than if you're grinding in the city on a professional grill but the product is lower quality)
  • Each skill point gives you a Path Point
  • You unlock Paths by multiple means. You start with Path of the Newbie (10PP); some paths are unlocked by killing special mobs, some paths are unlocked when you reach a specific skill level in a skill, etc, etc
  • You inject PP into a Path, which may give you stats, or skills, or "stats per level", or another Path
The thing is, the higher your stats/skills, the more you suffer from Aether Starvation, which means your skill growth slows (that's a soft version of the UO-type skill cap). If you're a newb, starting, getting Cooking from 20 to 21 could require cooking 20 Pepperoni Pizzas at uncommon quality. However, if you're already 100% over Aether Starvation cap, it takes 40 instead. So at one point, you need to switch to a Class:
  • Available classes are based on Skills you have unlocked.
  • Having a class stop Aether Starvation (so your skill gains return to normal)
  • Each level gives you stats/hp/mana/stamina, and the +XXX/level of your paths
  • Levels can give you class skills at 5/10/15 intervals
  • But you can unlock a limited number of skills. If you're full, you can drop a skill to learn a new one
You can add periodic respecs, which let you get a newer class, with different advantages (at the cost of losing all the PP of your class skills, which means your current path gets very long suddenly).

It works well in the context of the webnovel, since the MC is going to be overpowered and cheats by having incredible skills unlocked and ultrarare paths and OP classes. In a real game, it would require a massive balancing effort (for example classes can give you better stats, but less skills, or vice versa, or even have negative stats/level). But it would be fun.

Example: You start the game with nothing, and 3-5 in all stats. You have no skills and the only Path unlocked is the Path of Newbie (5PP cost). So, you run around, find some mob, and unlock the Mainhand Dagger skill, and the Endure Hits skill, but manage to kill the mob with 1 HP remaining.

You now have 2 PP to spend, and due to the borderline kill and getting a defensive skill, you now have three paths: Path of the Newbie (5PP), Path of Physical Defense (7PP) and Path of the Risk Taker (15PP).

Let's say you do newbie, so put all 2PP and get 1 Free stat per PP. So you can now increase your starting stats. Fight another mob, and blam, you get +1 skill in Mainhand Dagger, +1 skill in Endure Hits, and unlock Dodge skill, so you complete the Path... and that gives you +1 to all stats, +1 stat/level, and unlock the Mana Bolt skill and Heavy Blow skill (which will allow you to start to specialize in melee or magic combat based on which you use).

etc, etc.
 
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NOPE. THIS IS NOT THE GAME FROM AMAZON WE WANT. NO NO NO.

Actually this looks like the game. Let's say I am a tank in game. But in RL I did not show up to work that day. Maybe I had good reason! But the fact is I am going to have like cancerboy level hp's. Meanwile, this other worker just got off a double shift, and he pulled a double last week too. His dkp are through the roof and he has double disc cycling for 2 hours.
 
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goishen

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Yah, Sears tried that shit. They tried making each department compete with other departments. In other words, the tools department would compete with the men's clothing department.

I'm sure you remember Sears. It's where your parents shopped.

Sears, once the largest retailer in the world, has narrowly avoided liquidation. Here's how its downfall played out.

Oh, and in case you didn't know. Go to a mall near you. You'll be amazed at how many shops are closed down. I've got so many malls near me that are almost 100% closed down, that I can almost start posting pictures on r/AbandonedPorn.
 
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Yah, Sears tried that shit. They tried making each department compete with other departments. In other words, the tools department would compete with the men's clothing department.

I'm sure you remember Sears. It's where your parents shopped.

Sears, once the largest retailer in the world, has narrowly avoided liquidation. Here's how its downfall played out.

Oh, and in case you didn't know. Go to a mall near you. You'll be amazed at how many shops are closed down. I've got so many malls near me that are almost 100% closed down, that I can almost start posting pictures on r/AbandonedPorn.

Same in my area. "Abandoned Malls" is actually a thing, like skilled photographers are doing art projects around their photos.

It IS spooky. I rmember when if it was Saturday afternoon, you went to the mall. It is absolutely crazy how quickly that era has ended.

And yeah, I heard about Sears. Talk about pathetic. They sold off their Craftsman and Kenmore brand names. Oh sure, that will work.

edit: maybe malls are the retail world equivalent of mmo's?
 

mkopec

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Speaking of the light thing, I remember this like yesterday when I was a noob in EQ. Rolled a human ranger and when I got to lv 10 or 15 or whatever I decided to take the tunnel from Balckburrow to Everfrost because I heard people were farming for tusks which were worth a plat each or some shit. So yeah I head out of Blackburrow without a light source and got fucked in the dark pitch black cave. Finally after 15 min of running into walls and shit I figured out that you could cast some ignite shit on yourself and gave you like 2 seconds of light. finally after some 30-45 min I made it out!
 

Folanlron

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The idea relies on consumable items (torches, summoned light, etc) and class abilities. You could still go into dark areas without bringing those classes or the items, but you'd be at a steep disadvantage from an environmental perspective - not to mention you could give combat bonuses to enemies if you don't sufficiently light the areas, even including the chance for additional enemies to spawn from the darkness. Think of something like spider filled warrens with holes in the walls they climb out of - if your party keeps the lights up, the enemies are somewhat kept at bay.

Obviously this would be negated by items having intrinsic light source effects, which is why those items should either not be available, extremely rare, or class restricted.

As someone who has gotten progressively more color blind over the years, I find the whole "hard core" darkness to be really badly played out, a good percentage of designers really don't care that a lot of players(You would be amazed how many people are actually color blind.) can't see shit when you start fucking with gamma and just flat out pitch everything too black cause, "Player doesn't have light source."
 

Ukerric

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a good percentage of designers really don't care that a lot of players(You would be amazed how many people are actually color blind.)
Back when I was at Nevrax, I tended to remind the devs "8% of your players will be colorblind".

There's now a few tools that overlay a filter on your designs so you can see it "as they would", which helps to realize your beautiful UI is nearly unusable for 5-8% of your playerbase (depending on market; japanese have a lot less colorblindness than europeans)
 
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BoozeCube

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As someone who has gotten progressively more color blind over the years, I find the whole "hard core" darkness to be really badly played out, a good percentage of designers really don't care that a lot of players(You would be amazed how many people are actually color blind.) can't see shit when you start fucking with gamma and just flat out pitch everything too black cause, "Player doesn't have light source."

Game designers shouldn't be designing games around blind people. I know it's unfortunate but jesus fuck why does every demo think everything should be catered to them. It's like the people who complain about MMORPG's are time investment games and since they are 45 years old now with a job that takes up 50-60 hours a week and a shitty wife that's now fat with 2-3 garbage children they have to spend time with that the game should be designed to be played in 15 minute increments every other Wednesday between 7-8pm. No fuck that retarded bullshit.
 
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Borzak

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NOPE. THIS IS NOT THE GAME FROM AMAZON WE WANT. NO NO NO.

Actually this looks like the game. Let's say I am a tank in game. But in RL I did not show up to work that day. Maybe I had good reason! But the fact is I am going to have like cancerboy level hp's. Meanwile, this other worker just got off a double shift, and he pulled a double last week too. His dkp are through the roof and he has double disc cycling for 2 hours.

Makes sense. Love to be able to take out my bow and shoot a few slackers during the work day to get everyones attention. Those that don't get shot get a reward (a paycheck).
 
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Cukernaut

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Game designers shouldn't be designing games around blind people. I know it's unfortunate but jesus fuck why does every demo think everything should be catered to them. It's like the people who complain about MMORPG's are time investment games and since they are 45 years old now with a job that takes up 50-60 hours a week and a shitty wife that's now fat with 2-3 garbage children they have to spend time with that the game should be designed to be played in 15 minute increments every other Wednesday between 7-8pm. No fuck that retarded bullshit.

I’m fine with a dark game that has the ability to change color / brightness settings. Pretty reasonable. For dark souls I used to crank it up a bit extra. I’m partially colorblind.
 

Folanlron

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Game designers shouldn't be designing games around blind people. I know it's unfortunate but jesus fuck why does every demo think everything should be catered to them. It's like the people who complain about MMORPG's are time investment games and since they are 45 years old now with a job that takes up 50-60 hours a week and a shitty wife that's now fat with 2-3 garbage children they have to spend time with that the game should be designed to be played in 15 minute increments every other Wednesday between 7-8pm. No fuck that retarded bullshit.


Not blind .. color blind there is a difference, if you want your game too be enjoyable for everyone that wants too play, there are some things you shouldn't mess with, forcing gamma too 0, or like I said "pitching" everything to black, is one of the stupidest ideas and becomes a horrid handicap for a % of the player base.

How would you like it if you couldn't rebind keys ? or change volume levels for sounds/ambience/music etc etc
 

shabushabu

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Here's a utility idea: light.

Remember in EQ playing as a race that lacked night vision? Now apply something like that on a broader scale.

Have night actually be dark. Have dungeons be dark and dangerous. Monsters hiding in dark corners, pits and traps you can fall into if you don't see them and take the appropriate action to mitigate them.

Then give different classes utility to bring light to those dark areas. Clerics with holy relics that shine, wizards that can summon light stones. Fire spells that actually illuminate surroundings. Torches that can be crafted, found, and consumed. Give bonuses similar to how it works in Darkest Dungeon.

Darkness and danger are definitely missing in modern MMOs; nowadays dungeons are more like Disney experiences, perfectly lit and setup like dioramas.

I always wondered in “modern games” who keeps dungeons so lit, undead . Lol and the way they design loot tables, when u kill something that has killed adventurers, u should get their stuff.
 
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TJT

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The design change to night not meaning shit was always something that irked me. You have developer's saying that, "night time making it hard to see is a denial of service" and fags here telling everyone that, "it doesn't matter everyone gets darkvision or similar eventually and night means nothing then."

Sure, and a lot of people played Dark Elfs with natural ultravision or iksar with natural Serpent Sight too. But for everyone of them you had a human, barbarian, whatever who struggled with seeing shit in the dark in the early game and 20 years later they always remember the Blackburrow tunnel or Kithicor Forest or whatever. Even though they invevitably got lighting items later. Even having a lightstone in your inventory to see stuff better.

It just makes the game feel more alive. Having day and night cycles that mean nothing in your supposedly living breathing world is just lame.
 
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sadris

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Back when I was at Nevrax, I tended to remind the devs "8% of your players will be colorblind".

There's now a few tools that overlay a filter on your designs so you can see it "as they would", which helps to realize your beautiful UI is nearly unusable for 5-8% of your playerbase (depending on market; japanese have a lot less colorblindness than europeans)
What's nevrax?
 

nevergone

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The design change to night not meaning shit was always something that irked me. You have developer's saying that, "night time making it hard to see is a denial of service" and fags here telling everyone that, "it doesn't matter everyone gets darkvision or similar eventually and night means nothing then."

Sure, and a lot of people played Dark Elfs with natural ultravision or iksar with natural Serpent Sight too. But for everyone of them you had a human, barbarian, whatever who struggled with seeing shit in the dark in the early game and 20 years later they always remember the Blackburrow tunnel or Kithicor Forest or whatever. Even though they invevitably got lighting items later. Even having a lightstone in your inventory to see stuff better.

It just makes the game feel more alive. Having day and night cycles that mean nothing in your supposedly living breathing world is just lame.

Yes, and remember the drawback to picking a character with night vision was a hit to the way many NPCs viewed you (KoS) and put you in a size class that prohibited you from wearing some useful items.
 
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Any meaningful new mmo has to9 figure out a way to foil multiboxing. It drives away audience.

I like the skill paths > class idea ukerris mentioned above and if designed well, sure, it would be a fine way to go.

What still remains the challenge in the pve model, is how to design content.

What kind of irks me, is encounter mechanics can get ridiclously complicated but people just adapt, and that is where the fun curve really goes down because an encounter can turn into a strictly scripted series of raid actions, and for some, like me, that is where I get bored.

So the key, imo, would be to design content that gets more complex as the game evolves, but where the encounter becomes adaptive and starts to fuck with how it is dealing with the raid past certain parameters.

I'm not inventing the wheel. But I am asking, why the fuck can't design AI's that are less predictable after a few runs. You know, like being able to time Rampage? That is just a nerf, there is no reason they could not code more complicated triggers for effects like that.

The ideal would be that no website would be able to give you hard and solid strats, because the encounter reacts and can be tweaked on the fly by the devs. Not to make them more difficult, necessarily, but just different -- that makes people have to play on their toes and not just run through a script.

There should be as little script as possible for encounters the higher up in the game they go.