5 major ISPs roll out the "six strikes" policy regarding illegal downloads.

Gadrel_sl

shitlord
465
3
What would it take for pirates to stop pirating? I'm curious to see the answers of some here. If you illegally download content, at what price would you buy, instead of download?
At this point I am so entrenched in obtaining the majority of my media via bittorrent that I'm afraid I'll never be a customer. The only way I foresee that changing is if a sea-change occurs in the industry. Using movies as an example, the industry would have to make their entire library VOD, new theater releases VODwhile still in their theatrical release, and all for a reasonable price in the $10-20/month range. Otherwise, why stop pirating?

So I can wait forever for theprivilegeof paying media conglomerates to see media without any control of where, when, or how?

No thanks.
 

Falstaff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,313
3,169
I don't think this has been posted yet, but since we were talking about buying only channels you watch, this just happened a couple days ago... and as far as I know, it's the first time companies of this magnitude have sued each other.

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.co...ched-channels/

tl;dr is that Cablevision is suing Viacom over channel bundling practices that force people to pay for channels that hardly anyone watches.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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But the best example of how it should work is Steam. Seriously I pirated, you pirated, everyone you know pirated but Steam changed all that. Steam got us all addicted to paying for things again. For seeing a sale and buying games we would have never bought anyway. For making us buy games we already pirated and finished "because shit man it's ONLY FIVE BUCKS". Just look at how the PS4 is going to be offering every game as a download.
Steam also shows that maybe games are overpriced?http://www.edge-online.com/features/...too-expensive/
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
36,675
117,053
I don't think this has been posted yet, but since we were talking about buying only channels you watch, this just happened a couple days ago... and as far as I know, it's the first time companies of this magnitude have sued each other.

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.co...ched-channels/

tl;dr is that Cablevision is suing Viacom over channel bundling practices that force people to pay for channels that hardly anyone watches.
Damn, I was literally just about to post that. Pretty interesting timing with us just discussing it.
 

Aychamo BanBan

<Banned>
6,338
7,144
I don't think this has been posted yet, but since we were talking about buying only channels you watch, this just happened a couple days ago... and as far as I know, it's the first time companies of this magnitude have sued each other.

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.co...ched-channels/

tl;dr is that Cablevision is suing Viacom over channel bundling practices that force people to pay for channels that hardly anyone watches.
The thing that sucks is we will never come out ahead. If they break up bundles the channels we want will simply cost more. And those shit channels will be dirt cheap.
 

Northerner

N00b
921
9
There are a few other issues here as well, although less talked about.

Many content providers and media types (and economists and others) in general really want the general public to stay watching television. TV allows for double-dipping essentially where they get paid by you for the service and get paid again by advertisers for access to your eyeballs. It's why for decades now they've fought against VCR/DVRs and with some success have sued into submission anything that allows automatic ad-skipping. The government is somewhat enabling here too as if we don't watch any of the ads, we will consume less and frankly, that's not something any government wants to encourage while they are in power at least. Internet delivery cuts that out to a large degree unless the means of delivery are carefully controlled and even then the fact one source has ads puts it at a competitive disadvantage.

Television also allows for content tiering and market segmentation. Don't kid yourselves, this is serious business and they have plenty of well-educated people designing programming lineups specifically so target demographics are watching what they want them to when they want them to. You might not watch the Cleveland Show but you probably did at least a couple of times if it is sandwiched between shows you were watching. It allows demonstrably effective advertising (hey papa johns, you can look at your pizza orders in the ten minutes after your ad and *see* that it works!) targeted specifically to a market primed for that ad. Remember here that we are the outliers, the vast majority of TV content consumers still watch live and stay for the ads. Here internet delivery has big issues of course both in terms of when you watch and how you watch.

The main thing though is that they know they are exploiting a broken market mechanic. It's much the same as it was with music. The best deal thoughfor the managers in these companiesis to ride out the good times as long as they can. They have no incentive to change anything and certainly are not going to do so for fun. Content providers on the other hand may well revolt and the first steps towards this are already being seen.
 

Springbok

Karen
<Gold Donor>
9,051
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I just cancelled my Cox Cable (was $118 fucking dollars a month) to go strictly pirate, (funny timing on this news for me haha). Tv-links.eu satisfies a ton of my needs as well. Fuck monopolizing cable companies in their asses. Cox is literally the only service provider in my neighborhood, and can charge what they like. COME AT ME COX.
 

Skanda

I'm Amod too!
6,662
4,506
I just cancelled my Cox Cable (was $118 fucking dollars a month) to go strictly pirate, (funny timing on this news for me haha). Tv-links.eu satisfies a ton of my needs as well. Fuck monopolizing cable companies in their asses. Cox is literally the only service provider in my neighborhood, and can charge what they like. COME AT ME COX.
This is what I did a few months ago. I was paying a little over 170 a month for cable. Dropped it and increased my internet service to deal with the increased usage (fucking caps). Still saving around 120ish a month and didn't lose any shows.
 

Lithose

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Steam also shows that maybe games are overpriced?http://www.edge-online.com/features/...too-expensive/
Same conclusion behind TV, but worse because of what was mentioned. Without the middleman dictating his cut (Which in entertainment is HUGE) the actual price of profitability is totally dependent on audience. You could potentially have TV programs sell for 1$ an episode, still be *wildly* profitable for both the studio and the distributor--and that's all possible because the 80% take of the old media company/TV carrier was taken out of the price.

And the worst part about seeing those prices is knowing that they are only there because these companies were given their power by the government. They used the good faith of the tax payer, turned it around and started fucking them with it--which is why I have no sympathy anytime I see Sam Gamgee come on TV and tell me how the camera guy is trying to feed his children. The fact is, most of these companies are only entrenched because of the government allowed it--and their time is over. I'd like to pay the camerman directly for his work, the guy taxing my transaction can go fuck off.
 

Simas_sl

shitlord
1,196
5
Think about roads.
Roads cost money to build and money to maintain. If distribution was "essentially free" cable companies would not have a strangle hold on the market because any upstart could go lay their own essentially free cable. Or build and launch their own essentially free satellite. Sure, the initial cost is much greater than the cost of running the thing, but that's not the definition of free. Government grants, some of which I expect are for cable companies to lay cable in the boondocks, do not change the calculation. Subsidized is also not the definition of free.



I never said no one is exploiting demand. I said the market is artificially being held back through collusion. That given the profit potential, there should be an immense amount of competition--and comparing the profit potential in these markets, to say, your 3$ hamburger, which has a margin of pennies, is dumb.
You did say no one is exploiting demand. I quoted you. You have since edited it out of your post, but feel free to look at my quote.

You misunderstood my comparison. It wasn't about profit potential. As I said early in this thread, margins are completely irrelevant to the legality and morality of illegal downloading. The comparison was to illustrate that a market not supplying the consumer with exactly what the consumer wants is not unusual and not a justification to take the good without paying. Nothing more.

And that's fine, but it explains why media can be more profitable now, than anytime in history, while getting people like you to feel sorry for them. Because you simply don't understand the issues (And that's not a slight on you, it's complicated.)
Again, you are not understanding or not paying attention. I do not feel sorry for the cable companies - that's what "I'm no fan of the cable companies . . ." was meant to convey. I'm not sure how to make it clearer, but I'll try. I do not like the cable/ISP/media companies and I do not feel sorry for them. My lack of sympathy for pirates and my feelings towards the media companies are separate, albeit related, issues.
 
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You misunderstood my comparison. It wasn't about profit potential. As I said early in this thread, margins are completely irrelevant to the legality and morality of illegal downloading. The comparison was to illustrate that a market not supplying the consumer with exactly what the consumer wants is not unusual and not a justification to take the good without paying. Nothing more.
What about the fact that once "taken" the original good remains? I mean no one is arguing that content producers should be forced to bear the actual costs of piracy, right?
 

Simas_sl

shitlord
1,196
5
What about the fact that once "taken" the original good remains? I mean no one is arguing that content producers should be forced to bear the actual costs of piracy, right?
Pharma co. A comes up with a formula for male birth control, which proves to be wildly popular. Pharma co. A, which spent a good deal of time and money developing the formula, keeps it secret. Pharma co. B has one of its own employees pose as a job seeker, and apply for work at Pharma co. A. The employee is hired, finds the formula for male birth control, copies it down, and returns it to Pharma co. B.

Was the formula stolen?
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
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If the employee just decides to read the formula for leisure, yes, it's stolen, but there's no harmful repercussions to company A. In your example, company A is harmed because company B has proprietary information.

In media piracy, how is that at all similar? One is corporate espionage, the other is just a guy reading something.
 
2,199
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Pharma co. A comes up with a formula for male birth control, which proves to be wildly popular. Pharma co. A, which spent a good deal of time and money developing the formula, keeps it secret. Pharma co. B has one of its own employees pose as a job seeker, and apply for work at Pharma co. A. The employee is hired, finds the formula for male birth control, copies it down, and returns it to Pharma co. B.

Was the formula stolen?
If any information can be "stolen" then sure. I'm not convinced of the premise.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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Roads cost money to build and money to maintain. If distribution was "essentially free" cable companies would not have a strangle hold on the market because any upstart could go lay their own essentially free cable. Or build and launch their own essentially free satellite. Sure, the initial cost is much greater than the cost of running the thing, but that's not the definition of free. Government grants, some of which I expect are for cable companies to lay cable in the boondocks, do not change the calculation. Subsidized is also not the definition of free.
Oh, so government paying for it doesn't change the cost of the calculation? Okay. You make statements like this and want to have a serious argument about the economics of the situation? Come on.

This, again, is basic economics. There is a reason why the government builds things like roads--because they have a high cost, but essentially unlimited use. The definition is literally called "public good". The reason more companies don't do this is because the grants to build this were a one time thing--they were free to build, once. After they were built, there is unlimited exploitation of the product. Hence public good.

Giving a public good to a private entity allows for artificial profits to be made--considering said private entity would never have been able to accrue the capital to control the public good without government assistance (Because said control would have cost them too much in terms of competition) This automatically creates a barrier against competition, because the initial entry is so high and the established company is making 'free" profits, with high margins, which means any competition would be bought up or shut down by them. This is why the government controls things like roads.

Seriously, read about the tragedy of the commons, lighthouse principles--anything. I'm not just making this up, it really is very basic economics.




You did say no one is exploiting demand. I quoted you. You have since edited it out of your post, but feel free to look at my quote.
The first post, every follow up post mentioned you're starting to see a small exploitation in the field, but given the margins, the current exploitation is tiny, it's most certainly artificial. And the price of content is also artificial, hence refuting your "fair" market price.

Government grants (Above) changed the landscape of distribution, creating an artificial price point in the market--it's really that simple.

You misunderstood my comparison. It wasn't about profit potential. As I said early in this thread, margins are completely irrelevant to the legality and morality of illegal downloading.
No, they aren't irrelevant. The only reason they exist at such an extreme rate is due to the unfair market practices the companies employ, using lobbying power and duopolies to control distribution. This has ripple effects outside of price, such as delivery schedules--multiple people in this thread have posted that unless you have the service through the cable company, you're shit out of luck in terms of watching most content for a least a few months.

That's slowly changing, but the cable companies are doing everything in their power to stop it (Read northerners post, it's a good one). Why? Because those margins they are raking in are an artificial (Not "fair" market) construct and they don't want to give them up. And that artificial construct only exists BECAUSE they got rid of the governments power in the field AFTER exploiting the government for their power to start with.

The result is piracy. I don't find the person who steals from the bank robber any more or less reprehensible than the robber himself. It's that simple. I regard what these media companies are doing as illegal (And really, a lot of it is, they simply pay the fines.)--so why would I care that people pirate from them?


Again, you are not understanding or not paying attention. I do not feel sorry for the cable companies - that's what "I'm no fan of the cable companies . . ." was meant to convey. I'm not sure how to make it clearer, but I'll try. I do not like the cable/ISP/media companies and I do not feel sorry for them. My lack of sympathy for pirates and my feelings towards the media companies are separate, albeit related, issues.
The media companies have take more money from you than the pirates. 10 years ago, I could at least say they served a function--but in the last 10 years, their obstruction of the internet, their collusion, their FCC violations have sapped billions of this economy--they've wrought far, far more destruction than the pirates have.

I guess I just find it odd that you post no sympathy for the little pirates, when it's the larger pirates going after them?
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
The problem isn't recognizing the inequities in the industry, the inefficiencies in the market, the collusion between companies, the hidden monopolies. The problem is pretending that piracy is the moral high-ground. It doesn't act as a solution to any of those problems, it's just a way to get things you want without paying for them. Buying things that you feel are part of a fairer model DOES act as a solution, but this isn't the same thing.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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The problem is pretending that piracy is the moral high-ground. It doesn't act as a solution to any of those problems, it's just a way to get things you want without paying for them. Buying things that you feel are part of a fairer model DOES act as a solution, but this isn't the same thing.
I don't think people were pretending it was part of the moral high ground--I, at least, simply don't care. I view it as a thief, stealing from a thief. The bigger thief just happens to the media companies. I DO find it ironic that the same efforts which have kept said media companies in power, by limiting the ability of the U.S. government to prosecute their malfeasance, is also the reason the smaller pirates can exist without much government intrusion.

I'm certainly not going to support anti-piracy legislation or action until the larger detractors of the economy are dealt with. Supporting the copyright holders is like asking me to pay attention to an ingrown toe nail while the rest of the leg has gang green--it's a quesiton of priorities.
 

Simas_sl

shitlord
1,196
5
If the employee just decides to read the formula for leisure, yes, it's stolen, but there's no harmful repercussions to company A. In your example, company A is harmed because company B has proprietary information.

In media piracy, how is that at all similar? One is corporate espionage, the other is just a guy reading something.
The point was that theft does not always require the original to be taken.

Mikhail, I'm not sure what you mean with your question as to whether information can be stolen. Legally? Most certainly. Philosophically? My short answer is yes, but I have no desire to discuss philosophy.

Lithose, you continue to misunderstand me. Calculation was not the best word to use, I meant my sympathy calculations, not the cost of laying cable.

Margins are indeed legally irrelevant. If you would like to show me a statute that takes margins into account when dealing with theft I would love to see it. I also believe they are morally irrelevant, but I fear we simply have different conceptions of morality - I generally don't take moral issue with selling drugs and do not think stealing from a drug dealer is morally equivalent to selling drugs in the first place.

At bottom, even if everything you said was accurate - if no one was exploiting demand, instead of a few, if the market was stagnant, instead of stunted, if distribution was essentially free instead of much cheaper after a large initial expenditure or subsidized by the govt -I still wouldn't find the situation dire enough to justify piracy to the point where I would feel sympathy for them.

And of course, we haven't even discussed DVD releases. It's not the case that if pirates refrain from illegally downloading the new GoT episode they'll never have alternative access to it. In a handful of months the DVD will be released, on sale for $25-$35. It's not righteous protest, its impatient entitlement.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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Margins are indeed legally irrelevant. If you would like to show me a statute that takes margins into account when dealing with theft I would love to see it.
If margins are obtained through illegal market practices, then are they not legally relevant? I don't have precise numbers on this industry, but I'll use banking (Because it's more my field.)..>Today the banking industry makes billions off of transactions that were illegal thirty years ago--it's slowly changed the landscape of the laws through lobbying so that felonies are now corporate fines (So no individual actors can be accountable), which lets them pay to break the laws. The price of breaking the law is less than the profit.

It's not too different from what these companies are doing, they have had numerous fines from the government, but due to how corporate law works, they can continue to exist. I regard this as legally wrong and it's represented in their margins--the money is gotten by illegal market practices.

Now, is there a law based off of margins? No. But things in life are rarely so simple.

I also believe they are morally irrelevant, but I fear we simply have different conceptions of morality - I generally don't take moral issue with selling drugs and do not think stealing from a drug dealer is morally equivalent to selling drugs in the first place.
Fair enough, it is a difference of opinion, I'm certainly not able to prove moral relevancy. I just see the media companies as a bigger threat, so if I have to root for the lesser of two evils, it's going to be the pirates.

At bottom, even if everything you said was accurate - if no one was exploiting demand, instead of a few, if the market was stagnant, instead of stunted,
No, it's certainly stunted--legal actions were used to prevent the exploitation of internet content delivery. An open market, run correctly, with the government handling the public goods infrastructure, would have greatly accelerated new companies in the field. As is, it's still moving at a snails pace considering the size of the market. Which is why I'm pretty virulent toward media companies, most people generally don't realize how much these companies actions have restricted the U.S. from capturing the next wave of industry. (The money giants like Google and Apple are laying out though should point to the size of the market being held hostage here.)
And of course, we haven't even discussed DVD releases. It's not the case that if pirates refrain from illegally downloading the new GoT episode they'll never have alternative access to it. In a handful of months the DVD will be released, on sale for $25-$35. It's not righteous protest, its impatient entitlement.
DVD prices are also distorted by this scheme. Because if you produce something, you need to make a deal with these people that have distribution rights--those deals both delay DVD releases and increase their price. A portion of every DVD you buy, goes to the company that brokered the deal to get said program on TV (Or on demand) eventually--it's a price that is artificial in the market. I'm not saying pirates would cease to be if this price was removed, but it's like Steam--if movies were priced in real market terms, I think a lot of people would choose purchase, over piracy.

In the end, I understand what you're saying, I'm not missing the argument. I just can't side with the copyright enforcers when I view their behavior as terrible. But that's just an opinion, you're right. However, the origin of the argument was really about the prices for goods being "fair" by market standards--when in fact, many of these companies have used unfair market practices to maintain artificial prices--so the prices aren't fair, like say your burger is.