A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)
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Hatorade
A nice asshole.
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Dandai
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Page 939 (hardback):
She goes on to talk about how the flow seems heavier than usual, but I always interpreted it as her having a miscarriage, not as having the Pale Mare (or bloody flux or whatever).
Does GRRM have anything to do with the writing of the television series? I had wondered to myself if some of the things that have changed were his idea. Maybe stuff he wished he had written differently in the books...
I remind myself constantly that the books and tv series are two separate entities, but I still can't help being that annoying cunt who pipes up during the show "In the book it happened like this!" :/
When I read the book, I came away feeling like Shae didn't give two fucks about Tyrion. She never cared if he did or didn't fuck Sansa, even though he wanted her to care. And then at the trial when she busts out the whole "He made me call him my giant of Lannister" or whatever. That was just cold.
So watching the TV show, I could tell they were making her actually care about him. She was jealous of Sansa. He wasn't sneaking off to fuck her like he was in the book... And now when she testifies against him at the trial, it's bc she's hurt and he broke her heart. I guess it doesn't really change the outcome or the motivation, but for me, the way it happens in the book better justifies his anger and cold-blooded hatred, as he twists the chain around her neck. He loved her and she blind-sided him at the trial. Blind-sided again... by another "whore".
I gotta re-read the last few books, though. I missed half the stuff you guys are pointing out. Jaquen?! Holy hell...
I remind myself constantly that the books and tv series are two separate entities, but I still can't help being that annoying cunt who pipes up during the show "In the book it happened like this!" :/
When I read the book, I came away feeling like Shae didn't give two fucks about Tyrion. She never cared if he did or didn't fuck Sansa, even though he wanted her to care. And then at the trial when she busts out the whole "He made me call him my giant of Lannister" or whatever. That was just cold.
So watching the TV show, I could tell they were making her actually care about him. She was jealous of Sansa. He wasn't sneaking off to fuck her like he was in the book... And now when she testifies against him at the trial, it's bc she's hurt and he broke her heart. I guess it doesn't really change the outcome or the motivation, but for me, the way it happens in the book better justifies his anger and cold-blooded hatred, as he twists the chain around her neck. He loved her and she blind-sided him at the trial. Blind-sided again... by another "whore".
I gotta re-read the last few books, though. I missed half the stuff you guys are pointing out. Jaquen?! Holy hell...
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Yeah when I read the phrase 'it came to her that this was no more than her moon blood' I immediately think miscarriage.
Unless there is more context before that sentence, it honestly sounds more like it's her first menstruation since the blood magic baby, except I'm pretty sure too much time has elapsed for that. Hasn't it been at least a couple years since Drogo died? I've heard of women's cycles being thrown off for a couple months after a traumatic birth/late term miscarriage, but even with crazy witches involved, multiple years seems like too long.
Unless there is more context before that sentence, it honestly sounds more like it's her first menstruation since the blood magic baby, except I'm pretty sure too much time has elapsed for that. Hasn't it been at least a couple years since Drogo died? I've heard of women's cycles being thrown off for a couple months after a traumatic birth/late term miscarriage, but even with crazy witches involved, multiple years seems like too long.
Tuco
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GRRM usually writes one episode a season and is allegedly involved throughout. The episodes he writes usually have the most content that's outside the books and sometimes different from the books. I think this seasons' episode of his was some 90% new material.
As for Shae, in the books and the show her real feelings are a little ambiguous. I've always sided that she wanted to be with him and was too stupid to be discreet, or thought if she was discreet he would fall out of love with her. Her being found in Tywin's quarters really destroyed that viewpoint and a lot of what I thought of Tywin's character. I'm actually pretty interested to see that scene because how she acts could clarify exactly wtf was going on.
Dandai
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She says it's not the first period she's had since Drogo, but she can't remember when the last one was (the last full moon? the one before that? etc) - further evidence in support of a miscarriage.
Grimmlokk
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I don't think it's ambiguous at all in either version.
Book Shae is very clearly using him for money and he's just blind to it because of his own crippling need for affection/pussy. She does not give a fuck about him and it's completely obvious, all their "serious" talks are her bitching about the superficial shit she can't have.
TV Shae genuinely cared for him. In part this is because they were using her as another PoV for Sansa and the character needed fleshed out. But she was absolutely not the vapid moneygrubbing whore that the book version was. This makes her betrayal have more impact. I'm confident that before she gets choked out we will learn how she was coerced in to betraying him on threat of death or something.
Tuco
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Well my memory is shit and you're usually right when we disagree.
I think they've made Shae veer more onto the side of genuine affection but will show she betrayed Tyrion not by threat of death or even from her realizing Tyrion is a sinking ship but by promise of greater reward from Tywin. Still, I doubt they'll show why the hell Tywin brought Shae into his room.
Grimmlokk
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Yeah threat of death might not come in to it since she felt so betrayed by Tyrion for sending her away. Because she's a stupid whore.
As for why Tywin brought her in to his room? I don't get why so many people refuse to believe he just wanted to get his dick wet. People apply all these weird motivations and values to him that are based on nothing but their own wild conjecture. Dude wanted to fuck.
As for why Tywin brought her in to his room? I don't get why so many people refuse to believe he just wanted to get his dick wet. People apply all these weird motivations and values to him that are based on nothing but their own wild conjecture. Dude wanted to fuck.
Dacianprick King In The North
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Dude wanted to take all that was Tyrion's. He took the handship back, credit for the entire blackwater victory, took Tyrion's first wife, gave him a wife that hated him and if he ever moved to the north would probably be murdered, wanted to take his name as well by sending him to the wall. Tywin was always pissed at Tyrion the same way Cersei was, because he blamed Tyrion for the death of his wife.
He thought he'd rid himself of the dwarf. The coup de gr?ce was getting Shae to betray him with the trial and then by finally fucking her.
The character always seemed badass and cool, but he's a cruel and spiteful man as well.
This is the same guy that destroyed entire houses for standing up against him in his youth, was responsible for having his entire barracks rape Tyrion's common girl wife, betrayed of the last Targaryen King and sacked King's Landing, was behind the murder/rape of Elia of Dorne, started a war that ripped apart Westeros, masterminded the red wedding... I don't think he just wanted to get his dick wet. Fucking Shae was all about totally destroying everything Tyrion had. He could have fucked anyone, literally anyone in the world if he really wanted to.
He thought he'd rid himself of the dwarf. The coup de gr?ce was getting Shae to betray him with the trial and then by finally fucking her.
The character always seemed badass and cool, but he's a cruel and spiteful man as well.
This is the same guy that destroyed entire houses for standing up against him in his youth, was responsible for having his entire barracks rape Tyrion's common girl wife, betrayed of the last Targaryen King and sacked King's Landing, was behind the murder/rape of Elia of Dorne, started a war that ripped apart Westeros, masterminded the red wedding... I don't think he just wanted to get his dick wet. Fucking Shae was all about totally destroying everything Tyrion had. He could have fucked anyone, literally anyone in the world if he really wanted to.
Tuco
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I'm not applying shit. I'm saying it doesn't fit and hope they'll reveal more about his motivations. You're pointing to the single piece of evidence that defers from everything we know about him and points to him wanting to have kinky sex and saying that's his motivation. No it's not wild conjecture, it just doesn't fit.
Grimmlokk
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Doesn't fit with what? The fact he's not banging hookers in the throne room? We don't KNOW anything about his sex life. There's nothing for his sex life to differ from. All we know about his love life is that he loved his wife. Aside from that we have zero indication(pre-Shae) of what his proclivities in the bedroom are. It's not that he's definitely a whoremonger, it that's people are applying what we know of his public life to how he gets down in the bedroom. Think about that, think of all the repressed buttoned up people in the world who are furries or get pegged behind closed doors.
Maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part, but reading that scene has never made me think conspiracy or that Tywin shouldn't bang whores because he's a hardass proper lord in public. It makes me think "Tywin wanted to fuck this smoking hot hooker that is already bought and paid for."
I guess that's the thing. Tywin's sex life was never brought up before so it WAS kinda shocking that he even had one. I always figured Shae probably initiated it since she was so turned on by money and power. Who was he to say no. I do think there was the "fuck you" to Tyrion by fucking her. But it makes sense that he would fuck whores bc there's no strings attached, no expectations on the woman's part other than getting paid.
I remember thinking, when I read the whole scene, that Tyrion was acting so out of character. And I didn't like it. But watching the series, they've really driven home the fact that his father hates him and it makes more sense for him to snap the way he did. I figure they'll end the season with that scene. Either way, I can't wait to see it play out.
I remember thinking, when I read the whole scene, that Tyrion was acting so out of character. And I didn't like it. But watching the series, they've really driven home the fact that his father hates him and it makes more sense for him to snap the way he did. I figure they'll end the season with that scene. Either way, I can't wait to see it play out.
chaos
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It isn't necessarily Tywin banging whores, it is THAT whore. Tywin taking Tyrion's sloppy seconds, when he could have any number of whores delivered on demand, on the hour. It isn't just his public life, we know quite a bit about his past and his relationship with his father and how the whore played into that and we can probably infer that is a large part of his distaste for Tyrion's behavior. This is a guy who has no bones about having his men rape and murder children, who is well aware his grandchildren are all products of incest from his older two children. But with Tyrion he gets all uppity about sexual morality? I don't so much find it hard to believe that he would bang her, anything is possible, I find it more hard to believe that it just makes perfect sense to you in context of the history we know of Tywin.
Grimmlokk
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You don't see me adding all these theories about WHY I think he'd fuck her. I'm not speculating and adding my own reasoning based on his history. Everyone has their own reasons why for both sides of the argument, but it's all just their own slant on what they think Tywin would do. For everyone positive he'd never touch her based on his public persona there's another person positive he'd seek her out specifically based on his comments and actions.
I'm not on either side there, I don't necessarily think he'd bone her to spite Tyrion and I don't think it would be wildly out of character for him to do that. I'm mostly arguing for KISS. Thinking horses not zebras. It seems most likely to me that he just wanted to fuck, and she was young, hot, and willing. And I am exactly as likely to be wrong as everyone else.
I am genuinely eager to see how the show handles it. They WILL add clues/motivations that we never got in the book. We never got a Tywin POV and there was no real conversation in the book that would be very definitive either way. The show won't be that ambiguous.