Archeage

Kedwyn_sl said:

Most respectable guilds are looking for good fights. Not lopsided wins. The last thing people want is to PvD down a bunch of doors and cap maps on the first day because you are stuck pulling your pud for a week until the next reset only to win on the first or second day.

In games like this where the world doesn't reset its all the more important. You don't want to bottom feed everyone out. You want to win but you also want to fight not just steam roll everything. No fun there.

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You placed that 'respectable' well, cant argue against something that's a matter of opinion. But I'll claim that respectable guilds are a small minority and the majority of guilds indeed thrive on lopsided fights and waving their fake superiority into other's face. It gets even worse when you move away from guild tags and talk about individuals.

The ultimate difference is wether the pvp can make lose something (be it ships, xp, money, land or whatever). At that point everyone just looking to win or get their points per day will slowly lose interest and do other activities within the game (or quit). Is Archeage such a game?

Just losing a keep in a back-and-forth setting like GW2 or a battleground/arena is no actual loss besides the time invested in the actual activity... that's more like losing that game of LoL because of you had a troll or afk'er or were outplayed. GG and move on.

The point is, while there are a few exceptions, most people want reward with little or no risk. It's simple human nature. The only reason why itappearsthat this kind of behavior has lessened since the UO days is that most games include things in their design to prevent it as much as they can.

Oloh, you said it yourself:

Oloh_sl said:

If we had 10 and they had 40, I didn't think "for sparta, just be better than them" I went out and formed alliances so that we could bring 60.I had no interest in a "fair fight"and instead, worked really hard to leverage relationships and give and ask favors from the people that could keep us on top of scene.

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Not to mention the video you linked, those guys weren't interested in a fair fight either. Even in battlegrounds, which attempt to make things even and fair, pug vs pre-made is hardly fair.

Raes_sl said:

Oloh, you said it yourself.

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What I am telling you is that all parties involved at the Nexus wanted to be there, were willing to fight, and would garner their resources (allies) to win. We would never bring 100 to beat 10 and just grief them, but we would bring enough to win. They did the same. It was consensual PvP and, believe it or not, the only people that bitched about it for the most part were people NOT involved in the PvP that complained about lag (it was a server event).

Your "human nature" argument is incorrect. People want to play a game and want challenge, especially PvPers. Maybe you don't, but there is a significant market out there that does.

Edit: And you if you think that the people in that don't worry video didn't want to fight, look at the reaction from the Korean guilds. They chased them (lost but chased them) for the entire video. If you think that was forgotten and just considered a "gank," you have obviously never played with Koreans before. I guarantee the group that did that was KOS to the entire server for the remaining time they played the game. 100% certain of it. And that is part of the fun!

There is nothing fundamentally different between 100 vs 10 and 60 vs 40. You didn't want a fair fight, you wanted to win, with little to no risk. "we would bring enough to win."

"Your "human nature" argument is incorrect. People want to play a game and want challenge, especially PvPers,"

No, it isn't and I can't even believe you are attempting to argue this point. Where is the challenge in 60v40? Whether or not it's consensual is irrelevant. When all someone stands to lose is a little time, they are more likely to fight fair, sure, but not always. Now add xp or loot/gear loss on death, and that willingness changes drastically.

"Maybe you don't, but there is a significant market out there that does."

No idea where you get this impression from. I played UO at launch, Arthas (pvp) server in WoW (about a month after launch, when world pvp still happened) Lineage 1 and 2, Aion, etc. I love pvp, I despise ganking/griefing.

"And you if you think that the people in that don't worry video didn't want to fight, look at the reaction from the Korean guilds. They chased them (lost but chased them) for the entire video."

I never said they didn't want to fight, I said they didn't want a fair fight. Pay attention. They dropped in on their gliders, ganked some people while they had the advantage of surprise and numbers, and then ran when the odds turned against them. Where's the fair fight?

Most humans will take the path of least resistance to get what they want. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Pay attention.

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Not even sure what you are arguing at this point. To be clear, my point is:

1. You can make a PVP mmo that is successful in this market.

2. Give Archeage's feature set and strengths (pirate combat, sieges) and weaknesses (pve, mundane combat) that is the market this game should go after.

I use LOL and other examples to show a market exists. Is your point that a market doesn't exist or that archeage should focus in something other than pvp?

Really not sure what your advocating for.

You can't control fair fights in the field. Its not like half your force steps aside and keeps the numbers as even as possible.

One thing I try to do is move smaller groups around to harass the enemy's back lines taking objectives in their territory and keep them moving where I want them to (behind their lines) while my main force takes other objectives on their other front. Generally works very well keeping them moving back and forth on defense.

I'm not going to stop my larger force from taking a supply camp with 8 people defending and I'm sure those people are like "WTF those fucking zergers!". Not much can be done about that. Sometimes larger numbers come and kill you, other times you have 8 hold out against 30 because its well defended and sieged up (something we did routinely). Shit happens its not just a numbers game but sometimes numbers are there.

My reference was more about good guilds and alliances really do what to keep things fair. Prior to GW2 launch there was considerable effort and discussion between guilds and alliances trying to set where we would all go and keeping things as even as possible in a pre launch game. Does this stuff work out? No, in the end there was an obviously dominate group. It was a hell of a lot better though than everyone showing up on the same server or spreading out that other alliance over 3 other servers making them even weaker.

As for Archage, there seems to be a fairly decent amount of PVE, Farmville casual stuff and territory / pirate / PVP to keep everyone happy for a long time. If you want the 10vs10 instance hump you won't find it. If you want some team oriented PVP (with tangible in game territory to lose) or enjoy social aspects of MMO then I think there is plenty there to keep people playing. This isn't going to be a GW2, map gets wiped cleaned every week lets do it all over again type of game. Nor will it be a Darkfall where all the noobs get bottom fed out of the game over the first few months. This also isn't a CU PVP only game. Seems there is plenty of stuff for a lot of MMO demographic to pitch up a stake and enjoy the game even if one other aspect of the game might not be their cup of tea.

Oloh_sl said:

Not even sure what you are arguing at this point. To be clear, my point is:

1. You can make a PVP mmo that is successful in this market.

2. Give Archeage's feature set and strengths (pirate combat, sieges) and weaknesses (pve, mundane combat) that is the market this game should go after.

I use LOL and other examples to show a market exists. Is your point that a market doesn't exist or that archeage should focus in something other than pvp?

Really not sure what your advocating for.

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1. It's possible, yes. Doubt it will happen anytime soon. It's especially hard for publishers to gauge because of our history of pvp mmos. So many failures, and no real successes. They don't have a "WoW" to look at and say, "look, that's how it should be done, let's clone it a dozen times."

2. The market they should go after? How? Trion won't be allowed to make any changes to the game. They will publish and localize. That's it. What the Koreans have is what we will have.

3. You can't compare MOBA's to pvp mmo's. In one you're forced to fight fair. In the other, it's at your discretion. No comparison. Pointing at a few guilds who are the exception to the general rule changes nothing.

The core problem is, Asian (mostly Korean) games do a lot of things right, but they also do a lot of thingsAsian. What we need is a western game studio to take the good stuff, and truly westernize the rest. So sick of cartoony graphics, 2 faction, battleground bullshit. Would be really cool to see what a combined western/korean studio could do.

I'm gonna give Archeage a try, but I don't see it ending up too much different from Aion. I'd love to be wrong. Black Desert is looking good too. Basically a mmo version of Vindictus, which I've been waiting for.

2. The market they should go after? How?

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By how you spend your marketing budget and the news you report on.

Oloh_sl said:

By how you spend your marketing budget and the news you report on.

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Lol. Like any of that matters. MMO's don't succeed or fail based on their marketing. If the game is good it will get the best advertisement/marketing there is. Word of mouth. Or, more accurately these days, word of keyboard. And I can pretty much guarantee they aren't just going to focus their ads on specific parts of the game. They will have the usual bullet point list of everything the game has to offer. Sandbox! PVP! Naval battles! Hang Gliding! Sheep Farming!

The only thing Trion can do to try to help this game succeed in the West is keep the servers from crashing/lagging. Other than that it will succeed or fail on it's own merits.

What I think is much more important is whether or not they have any say in how the cash shop is handled. Western gamers have a lot less tolerance than asians for nickel and dime bullshit.

Raes_sl said:

Lol. Like any of that matters.

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Okay. I am starting to understand why I am confused by a lot of what you say. I don't want to be rude, so I'll just leave it at that.

Kedwyn_sl said:

As for Archage, there seems to be a fairly decent amount of PVE, Farmville casual stuff and territory / pirate / PVP to keep everyone happy for a long time. If you want the 10vs10 instance hump you won't find it. If you want some team oriented PVP (with tangible in game territory to lose) or enjoy social aspects of MMO then I think there is plenty there to keep people playing. This isn't going to be a GW2, map gets wiped cleaned every week lets do it all over again type of game. Nor will it be a Darkfall where all the noobs get bottom fed out of the game over the first few months. This also isn't a CU PVP only game. Seems there is plenty of stuff for a lot of MMO demographic to pitch up a stake and enjoy the game even if one other aspect of the game might not be their cup of tea.

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This is the vibe I'm gtting also. I enjoyed GW2 but it had fairly meaningless objective based PVP. Archeage has PVP with various purposes in more of a sandbox setting which is intriguing.

The crafting system is far more open ended as the game has more of a focus on economy vs raiding, which also is very appealing to me right now.

Oloh_sl said:

Okay. I am starting to understand why I am confused by a lot of what you say. I don't want to be rude, so I'll just leave it at that.

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If you can't refute my arguments, just admit it. No need for your retarded veiled insults. The only reason you're confused is because you think you know what the fuck you're talking about. Newsflash- you don't.

Raes_sl said:

If you can't refute my arguments, just admit it. No need for your retarded veiled insults. The only reason you're confused is because you think you know what the fuck you're talking about. Newsflash- you don't.

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You think that marketing doesn't work and that a product is successful solely by word of mouth. There is no refuting that argument. LOL.

Edit: to be more clear:

I say "they should market the PvP aspects of the game."
You say "how?"
I say "By spending money on it and reporting on the PvP aspects of the game"
You say "Marketing doesn't work."
My next line was going to be "You are a fucking retard," but I erased it because fighting on a forum is dumb.

Anyway, done responding to you. Not worth the effort.

Give me one single example of an mmo that failed or succeeded due to "marketing", genius.

Raes_sl said:

Give me one single example of an mmo that failed or succeeded due to "marketing", genius.

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You're retarded.

an accordion_sl said:

You're retarded.

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Thank you for your input.

Raes_sl said:

Give me one single example of an mmo that failed or succeeded due to "marketing", genius.

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WoW.

/thread

Flipmode_sl said:

WoW.

/thread

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Wrong. Try again.