Baldur's Gate 3 by Larian Games

Fucking SJWs ruining our lands as well as their own.

Yeah I was bummed out to hear they gave it the SJW treatment, but not surprised. Found this quote in a review on steam:

"If there was something for the original Baldur's Gate that just doesn't mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that]," said writer Amber Scott. "In the original there's a lot of jokes at women's expense. Or if not a lot, there's a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say like, 'No, that's not really the kind of story we want to make.' In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don't like that, then too bad."-Amber Scott, writer for new Baldur's Gate

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Jesus, talk about disrespect for the fans. And also a total misread of the original game - the NPC's barely had any personality to begin with, since they didn't get ongoing dialogue and personal quests until BG2, but Jaheira, while definitely wearing the pants in the relationship, never acted in a nagging fashion that I remember (I find it hilarious that they'd attack a relationship where the female partner is the decision maker as "sexist"). Safana I barely remember, but how can someone be a sex object in a game where all characters have a single (heavily armored) skin determined by their class/race combo? Talk about hunting for something to be offended by.

edit: wow lolNegative reviews on GoG and Steam - Beamdog Forumsthey really are sticking a middle finger to the fans. Definitely not spending any money on this. Kinda bummed out, since their IWD EE finally got me to enjoy the game (although it doesn't hold a candle to the BG games, it was a good timekiller).


Putting the SJW nonsense aside, what the fuck is up with those graphics? Is that something wrong with the person's computer?

Azrayne_sl said:

Yeah I was bummed out to hear they gave it the SJW treatment, but not surprised. Found this quote in a review on steam:



Jesus, talk about disrespect for the fans. And also a total misread of the original game - the NPC's barely had any personality to begin with, since they didn't get ongoing dialogue and personal quests until BG2, but Jaheira, while definitely wearing the pants in the relationship, never acted in a nagging fashion that I remember (I find it hilarious that they'd attack a relationship where the female partner is the decision maker as "sexist"). Safana I barely remember, but how can someone be a sex object in a game where all characters have a single (heavily armored) skin determined by their class/race combo? Talk about hunting for something to be offended by.

edit: wow lolNegative reviews on GoG and Steam - Beamdog Forumsthey really are sticking a middle finger to the fans. Definitely not spending any money on this. Kinda bummed out, since their IWD EE finally got me to enjoy the game (although it doesn't hold a candle to the BG games, it was a good timekiller).


Putting the SJW nonsense aside, what the fuck is up with those graphics? Is that something wrong with the person's computer?

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I was about to post this link. Krieger you beautiful monster.

Haha, I'm surprised they didn't make her unkillable, or add a huge reputation penalty.

The irony is that the original game is probably the first RPG to have an actual tranny character via. the girdle of gender change - wasn't there even some dialogue if you used it on Edwin?

Don't worry, they found another middle finger to stick up to the fanbase:

http://webm.land/media/tmp/53223f64-...1ec0b5766.webm

But seriously, those graphics alone make me want to puke. It looksworsethan the original game from the 90's does, how the fuck did they manage that? The EE graphics were fine - nice even, with the higher resolutions etc.

I was mulling over posting about this nonsense. I decided not, since no one else was. no need to taint, with bullshit..

I think people are being a bit retarded honestly.
yes this is some retarded bullshit. and that whole article from Grayson...

If there was something for the original Baldur's Gate that just doesn't mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that]," said writer Amber Scott. "In the original there's a lot of jokes at women's expense. Or if not a lot, there's a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say like, 'No, that's not really the kind of story we want to make.' In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don't like that, then too bad."-Amber Scott, writer for new Baldur's Gate

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but people are saying some dumb shit. not going to buy cause of this? really?

The review begging also kindof dumb yeah.

Ian Miles Cheong on Twitter:

You know what the problem with in-jokes like these are? They become dated references that age the product by a lot.

It's like all those Monica Lewinski jokes you'll find in '90s things. It doesn't age well. These things don't stand the test of time.

When I'm playing a fantasy RPG the last thing I want is to be reminded of some dated reference from 2 years ago.

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This certainly CAN be true.. But is not absolute.

Meta jokes, and 4th wall breaking has been a part of every PnP and CRPG since the beginning. every game even.
BG itself has Minsc and boo. being talked about... A mini giant space hamster. THAT itself is lore breaking. Monty python referances.. etc. Its like complaing about the Infractem(aka Minecraft) in path of exile.

Beamdog Addresses s Gate by Adding a Dash of Social Justice - Niche Gamer
First screenshot.

"goblin: so, all goblins look alike to you. That's what you're saying? Racist."

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This is exactly the kind of joke that is every DnD game.

Transgender NPC is most amusing because it brings up the bigger question here. Edwin/Edwina. Elminster/Elmara.. Girdle of gender bender..
sex changes in Forgotten Realms should be relatively easy. Gods can do it at a whim. I can't believe for a second Priests/Priestess of Sune don't do that for fun... Llira should be on that as well. It might be relatively costly for Wizards, peasants.
Granted. Tempus is a dick. so, maybe thats her problem.
A wandering merchant should absolutely have had a chance to petition a god, or pay a wizard..


I wonder if there is some death of the author here... would you guys have this problem if you didn't read about this shit, and only saw it in game? If you didn't see the author say that dumb shit would you have noticed it? I don't know. But, also why I didn't bring it up. I was curious if those that actually played the game... noticed it.

Caliane_sl said:

would you guys have this problem if you didn't read about this shit, and only saw it in game?

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Yes, of course. Besides, the reason I read about this shit beforehand is to ensure that assholes like this do not get a penny of my money. What Treehouse does to Nintendo games makes me mad; seeing a classic like Baldur's Gate get the SJW treatment makes my fucking blood boil.

Take a wild guess who this writer works for.

but people are saying some dumb shit. not going to buy cause of this? really?

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Personally it wasn't the decision maker for me - I was already on the fence because the original content they added to the BG EE's was universally buggy and low quality, so obviously I was going to be leery about a release that wasallnew content. But getting a look at whatever the hell it is they've done to the graphics (seriously, what's the deal? how did they make it so awful?), and hearing even people who don't care about the identity politics stuff saying it's riddled with bugs, and seeing what little I have of the writing and recognizing it's on par with the writing for the new content in the BGEE's (which was average at best and quite awful in places), I just can't justify spending any money on this. I don't want my memories of BG tainted by that.

On the flip side, if the game was on par with the BG series barring the identity politics inserts, I would absolutely buy the hell out of it and just ignore the content I don't like, and I honestly think most people would do the same. BG was such a great series, and has such a deep following, that I can't imagine any halfway serious fan would reject this if it was getting good reviews on everything but the SJWisms. That's not what's happening - the SJWisms (and the disrespect for the fanbase) are just the diarrhea icing on what looks like a serious turd cake of a game.

This certainly CAN be true.. But is not absolute.

Meta jokes, and 4th wall breaking has been a part of every PnP and CRPG since the beginning. every game even.
BG itself has Minsc and boo. being talked about... A mini giant space hamster. THAT itself is lore breaking. Monty python referances.. etc. Its like complaing about the Infractem(aka Minecraft) in path of exile.

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It's not the fourth wall aspect that bothers me about the Minsc thing, it's that they're hijacking an iconic character in a series to which many people have a deep emotional attachment and using it to push their political agenda. They're using him to deliberately make a joke at the expense of people who make up a large portion of the BG fanbase - that's a shitty thing to do, no matter where you fall on the GG issue. I'd be just as annoyed if they had him making some crack at bluehair types (well, maybe not just as annoyed, but it would massively bug me - using iconic characters to mock their fans about their passionate political views, even if you think those views are nonsense, is so unbelievably disrespectful and unprofessional, I'm amazed that they had the balls to do it).

re: your examples, firstly you could argue there's technically nothing lore breaking about Boo - he's just a regular hamster and Minsc is mentally ill, as far as I remember. It's a bit silly, but this is a setting where you could probably create a literal miniature giant space hamster if you wanted to, and more to the point, it fits with Minsc's personality, it's a major aspect of his identity which humorously plays on his loose grip on reality. Same for Monty Python references (if it's the one I'm thinking of), it fit the character on multiple levels (Garrick - he's portrayed as cowardly, so the lyrics fit his personality, and he's a bard, so it would fit that he sings as he runs away). Neither technically breaks the fourth wall (although there are plenty of lines which do, usually the shit characters say when you leave them idling too long or click them repeatedly). The Monty Python reference from Garrick makes sense in the context and is catchy even if you've never seen Holy Grail, and it also doesn't shit on people for holding opinions you don't like.

And come on, what the hell does "it's about ethics in heroic adventuring!" even mean if you don't follow the GG controversy? I mean maybe it would make sense if they altered the line a bit and gave it to someone like Ajantis, for whom it would make sense to be talking about ethics, but that would take actually stopping and thinking about your writing for 10 seconds instead of taking a cheap shot at people who's opinions you don't like, and it would mean getting less attention to your lame joke because it's on a less popular and iconic character.

That the real issue, they're taking something which holds deep emotional and nostalgic value for a lot of people, then using it to push their political agenda and make jokes at the expense of the players. That's not cool.

Regarding the issue of the joke being time sensitive - this is a problem on two levels. First, as he said, it will grow dated very quickly (it's already not exactly topical) and within a couple years make no sense unless people look it up. Secondly, part of the atmosphere of a piece of media is defined by the era it's made it - Baldurs Gate exudes that late 90's RPG vibe, and inserting jokes (regardless of how well executed) and political sensibilities (regardless of how correct) from 20 years later messes that atmosphere up. Instead of tapping into nostalgia, it destroys it.

This is exactly the kind of joke that is every DnD game.

Transgender NPC is most amusing because it brings up the bigger question here. Edwin/Edwina. Elminster/Elmara.. Girdle of gender bender..
sex changes in Forgotten Realms should be relatively easy. Gods can do it at a whim. I can't believe for a second Priests/Priestess of Sune don't do that for fun... Llira should be on that as well. It might be relatively costly for Wizards, peasants.
Granted. Tempus is a dick. so, maybe thats her problem.
A wandering merchant should absolutely have had a chance to petition a god, or pay a wizard..

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That's exactly the point though. There were opportunities to create trans characters in BG1 and BG2 both (although I suppose not in the sense that the SJW's want), and nobody complained about those because they were written to fit into the setting and gelled with the game. People aren't inherently offended by characters changing gender - as you said, it's almost to be expected given the setting.

But instead they just went with having some major NPC randomly spout a diatribe about how "they were born a boy but they changed their identity to something that more truly suits them and how they created a new name out of nothing to represent their new self" or whatever, after some obviously leading line which makes no sense ("that's a strange name, I've never heard it before"? This is fucking Forgotten Realms, everyone has a weird name*), with absolutely no context, followup or purpose other than to be able to virtue signal by saying "look, we have a trans character! we put a trans npc in!" That's what bothers people, the fact that they obviously inserted this character for no other reason than to have a trans character present, instead of creating an interesting character with a thought out background, or at least writing some decent fucking dialogue around the subject.

*Although on a side note, I had a really interesting conversation with a cab driver called Khalid just last week.

I wonder if there is some death of the author here... would you guys have this problem if you didn't read about this shit, and only saw it in game? If you didn't see the author say that dumb shit would you have noticed it? I don't know. But, also why I didn't bring it up. I was curious if those that actually played the game... noticed it.

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The way the game is? I doubt it, because I would have made sure I stopped playing inside 2 hours to get my refund :/ But assorted other issues aside - yes, of course people are going to notice this stuff when they do it in such a blatant, stilted and awkward manner. That's why there's such a fuss about it.

Compare it to, say, ME3. Was there complaining about the fact that there was a gay male romance option? Yes, some. But imo it was fairly well handled, the writing was decent, and it was present without being shoved down your throat (or sticking a middle finger to the fanbase) - I have no problem with that, and neither do most people, which was reflected in the fact that most of the complaining about the game was surrounding the gameplay and storyline. Yeah some people were upset about having a single gay romance, but it didn't dominate the discourse about the game. Same with DA3 (although I feel they were a little more forceful here, but both of the gay party members felt realistic and fit into the setting and the story, and they didn't bother me at all, I actually liked Dorian as a character - although I could have done without the tired old "Dad's mad at me cause I like men" background -, Sera not so much, but that was because she of her shitty personality, not because she was a lesbian).


And to then have the devs come out and basically crap all over people who don't like it and imply that they're homophobic/transphobic/racist/sexist/whatever because of it is just disgraceful. Saying they don't care if the fans don't like what they're doing to a beloved franchise in using it to shove their political views (badly)? Then begging the for positive reviews because the fansdon'tlike what they're doing to a beloved franchise?

They know what the atmosphere surrounding those issues is like in the gaming community, they chose to stir the pot and shove it down peoples throat in a painfully awkward and preachy manner, and they hijacked a genre defining franchise to do so - what the hell did they expect? Fuck them. Their inability to write these situations properly isn't anyone's problem but theirs, and trying to shove it off onto the players by accusing them of having "offended sensibilities" (translate: being *phobic/*ist) is such a copout.

Skanda_sl said:

Take a wild guess who this writer works for.

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Prime example. There will always be a portion of people who object to the presence of minority characters in media, but most people don't mind itas long as it's done well.That's the crucial difference, there's a difference between skillfully writing minority characters who seamlessly fit into a setting, have an identity beyond their minority status, don't rely on tropes and stereotypes and don't preach to the audience, and just throwing them in so you can say that you have them or hit some diversity quota. The Beamdog crew obviously don't have the skill for the former, so they resorted to the latter instead of just acknowledging their limitations and withholding, and then they got upset when people called them out on it.

Politics aside, it demonstrates a lack of writing ability and a deeply disrespectful and unprofessional attitude towards the fans, which is a pretty huge red flag on any game.

Skanda_sl said:

Take a wild guess who this writer works for.

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Wellp. That's that.

Let it burn.

Azrayne_sl said:

It's not the fourth wall aspect that bothers me about the Minsc thing, it's that they're hijacking an iconic character in a series to which many people have a deep emotional attachment and using it to push their political agenda. They're using him to deliberately make a joke at the expense of people who make up a large portion of the BG fanbase - that's a shitty thing to do, no matter where you fall on the GG issue. I'd be just as annoyed if they had him making some crack at bluehair types (well, maybe not just as annoyed, but it would massively bug me - using iconic characters to mock their fans about their passionate political views, even if you think those views are nonsense, is so unbelievably disrespectful and unprofessional, I'm amazed that they had the balls to do it).

That the real issue, they're taking something which holds deep emotional and nostalgic value for a lot of people, then using it to push their political agenda and make jokes at the expense of the players. That's not cool.

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yeah. as someone in comics. And certainly having played games forever. Character and IP when handled by multiple creators can vary wildly. Ideally, I think we agree, a writer should try to honor the tradition. and when a creator expressly says they are spitting on it.. yes. not going to win over any fans.

I mean, look at Revan in Kotor.

But instead they just went with having some major NPC randomly spout a diatribe about how "they were born a boy but they changed their identity to something that more truly suits them and how they created a new name out of nothing to represent their new self" or whatever, after some obviously leading line which makes no sense ("that's a strange name, I've never heard it before"? This is fucking Forgotten Realms, everyone has a weird name), with absolutely no context, followup or purpose other than to be able to virtue signal by saying "look, we have a trans character! we put a trans npc in!"

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yeah, also true. I was considering writing a follow joke about being a transtrender. after discussing the many options of a transgender in Toril. It IS very out of place for someone to feel the need to tell you about it. If they were trans, they would go do something about it. And not sound like a salesman trying to sell you something. unless of course, they did follow it up with JUST that. the character selling you a belt, or trying to covert you to worship the god that did the change for them..

Honestly, I've never played KOTOR - game is cursed or something, I've tried to play it multiple times but each time I get hit with a different set of gamebreaking bugs. Whats the deal with Revan?

And yeah, given the nature of the FR setting, those kind of gender issues would manifest in a completely different way - which was reflected in the original series. But with this they've chosen to hamfist real world concepts and experiences of transgenderism into a world where there would be no reason for it to exist.

unless of course, they did follow it up with JUST that. the character selling you a belt, or trying to covert you to worship the god that did the change for them..

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yeah something like this could have actually been interesting. But then they don't get to show how good and progressive they are by implementing a real world trans NPC into FR, no matter how out of place it feels.

Of course if they had tried to do it in a way that fits into the setting, the SJW brigade would probably get up in arms because it doesn't "reflect the lived experience of real transgender people" or some nonsense - I honestly can't think of a way a trans character could be implemented into a FR type setting that would both make sense in the setting and not send the bluehairs into a frenzy. Certainly Beamdog were unable to think of a way to do it, but given the quality of their writing, that's unsurprising. I would bet that they agonized over the concept of a trans party member for ages before realizing there was no way to make it work.

Azrayne_sl said:

Of course if they had tried to do it in a way that fits into the setting, the SJW brigade would probably get up in arms because it doesn't "reflect the lived experience of real transgender people" or some nonsense - I honestly can't think of a way a trans character could be implemented into a FR type setting that would both make sense in the setting and not send the bluehairs into a frenzy. Certainly Beamdog were unable to think of a way to do it, but given the quality of their writing, that's unsurprising. I would bet that they agonized over the concept of a trans party member for ages before realizing there was no way to make it work.

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It definitely could be done. I mean, thats essentially what happened to Edwina. Got magically changed sex. making him transgender.. He wanted changed back. Elminster I don't think was portrayed as caring too much. so, possibly trans, possibly just an advocate for poly.. But thats the problem, in a world with this much magic, any story involving something like this... will involve magic.
And THAT does piss blue hairs off. Any actual trans, will be just fine with magic being involved.

Again, we saw this in comics as well. Back when Simon decided to create and declare "the first transgender in comics!" At, which point, everyone said, wtf are you talking about, theres like a hundred trans in comics. so no. she didn't want to write about someone changed via magic or whatever. no, she wanted to make a token transgender in a comic world, who was stuck with real world issues. So, Batgirls roommate is transgender. and of course, this is her most defining/only trait. and she had to have a discussion about it. this is also, of course despite Zatanna, Good friend of Batman, Harleyquinn, WW, Barbara herself, etc. having used magic to turn at least 2 men into women in the past. including one of her long time, good friends. Introducing her trans roommate to Zatanna however, seems out of the question.. kindof like curing Barbara of her spine injury I guess...

Azrayne_sl said:

Politics aside, it demonstrates a lack of writing ability and a deeply disrespectful and unprofessional attitude towards the fans, which is a pretty huge red flag on any game.

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Yeah, characters as mouthpieces is one of the hallmarks of a bad writer.

Revan is left open to being a man or woman, ostensibly. Revan is more of an ideal within the SW:OR mythos than a specific person with a specific gender. That is, of course, thrown out with the TOR expansion the Shadow of Revan in which he's explicitly a dude with a beard. Some tardos think it makes him a potential tranny, because it was open in the single player games.

Granted... Revan is horribly portrayed in the expansion, and the developers sort of shit on the potential canon of the single player games. But tranny Revan is not. The same people that think Revan is a tranny are most likely the same people who think Samus Aran is a tranny. Ie, idiots with an agenda.

uniqueuser_sl said:

Yeah, characters as mouthpieces is one of the hallmarks of a bad writer.

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She's not really a writer, she is just someone who writes. A writer is a professional who understands that their craft acts as a mediator between them and the audience, and that writing is a fluid, dare I say,transformational process for the writer, reader AND the story itself. Anything other than that is the work of a shit 'writer,' or simply propaganda. Oh fuck it, any asshole with a blog can call themselves a journalist now, so whatever she can be a writer if she wants. I mean, if a drugged out crack whore gives birth to 10 crack babies, she is still technically a mother for whatever that's worth.

Bitch thinks because she can put a period at the end of a sentence she is a "creator" of stories. You don't even need to discuss the SJW aspect of this; her complete lack of knowledge for the storytelling process is obscene in its own right.

Damnit. Was going to buy the game but saw her post.

This forum ruins so many things for me.

I have no idea why being 'transgender' would be a problem in the Forgotten Realms. Girdle of Gender Swap. Polymorph. All sorts of spells, potions, and magical items that will change your gender for you, many of them permanent and considered 'cursed' (So they are relatively cheap). Why make a big deal out of it?

If they wanted to handle it with some tact and keep it in-universe, have the person say how they have never felt right as who they are. Give a quest to recover one of the items. Hand it over. They change genders and are happy.

There are no 'shrinks' in FR. You deal with your mental trauma by going to a psion or with booze, the way Lord Ao intended.

Rime_sl said:

I have no idea why being 'transgender' would be a problem in the Forgotten Realms. Girdle of Gender Swap. Polymorph. All sorts of spells, potions, and magical items that will change your gender for you, many of them permanent and considered 'cursed' (So they are relatively cheap). Why make a big deal out of it?

If they wanted to handle it with some tact and keep it in-universe, have the person say how they have never felt right as who they are. Give a quest to recover one of the items. Hand it over. They change genders and are happy.

There are no 'shrinks' in FR. You deal with your mental trauma by going to a psion or with booze, the way Lord Ao intended.

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It's not, its never been. None of this pertains to the setting whatsoever, but they HAVE TO inject it into everything.

aaron_sl said:

Wait, how did they fuck with Minsc? Could someone tell me, please? :/

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The worst of it is him saying, "Really, it's all about ethics in heroic adventuring." which is one of the oh-so-witty anti-Gamergate memes that was already sounding dated a year ago.