Vaclav
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Restricted doesn't necessarily preclude ANY use however - logically in his position letting his enemies leave would have been a good thing, especially if there was a lockdown on returning.
Bioshock Infinite
- Thread starter Falstaff
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Cantatus
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Here's my thought on Booker being Andrew Ryan or Jack:
The game establishes that there are two types of universes: There is the one in which Booker gets baptized. In this universe, Columbia exists. Comstock goes on to steal Anna once he learns he's infertile. Then there is the other universe where Booker does not get baptized. He goes on to get married, have Anna, but then gives her up to Robert Lutece to pay his debts. In this universe, Columbia cannot exist.
Yet, Elizabeth says, "There isalwaysa man, a city, a lighthouse." She never says it's the same man nor the same city or lighthouse, but these thingsalwaysexist. So, in the universe that Booker never becomes Comstock and builds Columbia, something needs to take its place: Andrew Ryan and Rapture. Andrew Ryan is not Booker nor Comstock. He's the man that builds the city and the lighthouse because Comstock does not.
To put it another way: In the moment when Booker makes a decision between getting baptized and not getting baptized, the timeline splits. In one timeline, he becomes Comstock and Columbia comes into being. In the other, he does not, and the city has to be constructed by Andrew Ryan. It is like the Luteces said: It's two sides of the same coin. It's just a matter of perspective.
The game establishes that there are two types of universes: There is the one in which Booker gets baptized. In this universe, Columbia exists. Comstock goes on to steal Anna once he learns he's infertile. Then there is the other universe where Booker does not get baptized. He goes on to get married, have Anna, but then gives her up to Robert Lutece to pay his debts. In this universe, Columbia cannot exist.
Yet, Elizabeth says, "There isalwaysa man, a city, a lighthouse." She never says it's the same man nor the same city or lighthouse, but these thingsalwaysexist. So, in the universe that Booker never becomes Comstock and builds Columbia, something needs to take its place: Andrew Ryan and Rapture. Andrew Ryan is not Booker nor Comstock. He's the man that builds the city and the lighthouse because Comstock does not.
To put it another way: In the moment when Booker makes a decision between getting baptized and not getting baptized, the timeline splits. In one timeline, he becomes Comstock and Columbia comes into being. In the other, he does not, and the city has to be constructed by Andrew Ryan. It is like the Luteces said: It's two sides of the same coin. It's just a matter of perspective.
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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Yeah, I think the thread got a little caught up on Booker literally, possibly, being Andrew Ryan as well as Columbia being Rapture. All these things don't have to take place on the same timeline, on the same dates, with the same people, but they will take place; with a lighthouse, a man, and a city. Columbia and Rapture are figuratively related and not literally. Same with Booker/Comstock and Ryan/Jack. That was my take away from the experience at least, and one that satisfies my curiosity.
On 1999 I ended up using Repeater and Carbine almost exclusively. Towards the end I used an upgraded Return to Sender along with the +Salt and +Health gear. Basically could walk around charging RtS invulnerable while killing and regaining Salt to sustain the madness. If my health dropped too low then the next kill almost certainly gave me back the Health + Salt needed. Hardest fights were, as mentioned, any Handyman and Lady Comstock in the Bank of the Prophet.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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i always assumed we were not talking in literal sense. literal explanation makes no sense anyhow. Heads or tails. Does it matter which perspective? How important is the detail? It's still a same coin (reference to Chen Lin's death scene). "There is always a lighthouse, a city, and a man."
EDIT: shit Cantatus covered it.
EDIT: shit Cantatus covered it.
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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Only when people were adamantly (staunchly?) arguing that, "Columbia IS NOT Rapture," etc... is why I phrased it like that.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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Well, that's a plausible reason behind it. A lot of people were just going "Zomg Rapture is an Alt Columbia!" without any reason behind it other than "JUST BECAUSE." Rapture happening in DeWitt-verse because Columbia is never built on that side by Comstock and the lack of his influence on history is possible. Though I still think both happening in the same universe is apossibility.
Aso the Bathysphere thing is still a total red herring:http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Bathysphere
Aso the Bathysphere thing is still a total red herring:http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Bathysphere
So DeWitt either becomes part of Ryan's inner circle as an old man, is related to one of them, or is a cousin of Ryan somehow. Either that or they happened to pop in during the uprising and they had put warnings up that they were off-limits, but Ryan hadn't actually locked them to genetic markers yet (he does this just shortly before Jack arrives).
I'm about 4 hours in so far.
Absolutely amazing. I don't want to be spoiled too much (I thought Bioshock 1 was amazing, and 2 was "meh"), so I've been avoiding this thread and the purchase until I'd read some reviews.
Absolutely amazing. I don't want to be spoiled too much (I thought Bioshock 1 was amazing, and 2 was "meh"), so I've been avoiding this thread and the purchase until I'd read some reviews.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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I would like to see a proof that those two cities are in the same universe before we can jump the ship because that's what you are lacking. And Columbia stealing technology from Rapture isn't the same thing. Fink is merely seeing the another version of universe--not the future. I am not convinced by your literal reasons. Possibility of alternative reality (Head: Columbia. Tail: Rapture) is greater (backed by the theme, words of the protagonists/supporting cast, and pretty much the entire fucking game) than your version of interpretation which lacks any cohesion to the plot and the theme of Bioshock Infinite. But anything could happen. Whatever Levine says, goes.
The tears into Rapture are seeing the "future" regardless of if it's peering into an alt verse of DeWitt's world where Columbia is never built and Rapture is instead or if it's just peering into the future of Comstock's world due to the timeline differences. It doesn't matter which of those two scenarios is right, because it's peering from the 1890s-1900s into the 1940s-1950s.
Also the whole situation revolving around Comstock being the Prophet of Columbia is that he's seeing into Future Tears.
Also the whole situation revolving around Comstock being the Prophet of Columbia is that he's seeing into Future Tears.
TrollfaceDeux
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As Luteces have said, Comstock doesn't see the future. There is no such thing as future tears. He only sees possibilities.
That's just flat, 100% wrong. Tears can be opened to any time period and are indeed possibly windows into the "future". Elizabeth pulls you into a tear to a far future New York and you also see a tear to 1980s Paris at one point. At the end you are pulled from 1912 Columbia to 1958-1960 Rapture. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
TrollfaceDeux
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You do realize one of the MAJOR plot points of the game is that an Old Elizabeth pulls you 70 some years into the future to save you and then sends you back in time to 6 months after the point she pulled you from with a message to give to her younger self, right? Tears are windows intoanypoint in Time/Space and they are not restricted by time, thus you can see "the future" with them.
Qhue
Tranny Chaser
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Questions that are left unanswered from my point of view:
1) Why does Elizabeth wait until 1984 to attack New York? Columbia is pretty much SDF-1 in 1912 and could easily take on the world at any time once she decides to do so.
2) Related to 1) Why does she attack New York in the first place? In the future we see she doesnt seem as focused on the Sodom Below as her father was.
3) What exactly sets Booker off on the path to crazytown? Booker seemed genuinely repentant with respect to his actions at Wounded Knee and that is what led him to the baptism in the first place, how does he go from that rebirth to hating anything that isn't 100% Americana?
1) Why does Elizabeth wait until 1984 to attack New York? Columbia is pretty much SDF-1 in 1912 and could easily take on the world at any time once she decides to do so.
2) Related to 1) Why does she attack New York in the first place? In the future we see she doesnt seem as focused on the Sodom Below as her father was.
3) What exactly sets Booker off on the path to crazytown? Booker seemed genuinely repentant with respect to his actions at Wounded Knee and that is what led him to the baptism in the first place, how does he go from that rebirth to hating anything that isn't 100% Americana?
TrollfaceDeux
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of course, there are thousands (or infinite) of probability, according to the game, and tears reflect those probabilities--past or present.
Vaclav
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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1/2) I took it to be out of her hands - that she just kept the people riled up like her father did, and eventually the people chose to.
3) Wasn't the timeline that he didn't start going batshit until after he went sterile, was forced to "Fringe" a kid from another universe, had his wife begin to hate him, and then saw her murdered by Daisy Fitzroy? Because all of those together do easily look like a formula to turn someone from suggesting something to a full blown zealot.
3) Wasn't the timeline that he didn't start going batshit until after he went sterile, was forced to "Fringe" a kid from another universe, had his wife begin to hate him, and then saw her murdered by Daisy Fitzroy? Because all of those together do easily look like a formula to turn someone from suggesting something to a full blown zealot.
I thought that Daisy was just framed for the murder of his wife?
Anyways, yeah - the Infertility shit basically started it all and he started going power crazy from his experiences with seeing alternate universes and possible futures with the tears. It all stemmed from his meeting with the Luteces and their experiments with the tears, which made him infertile and caused his deformed rapid aging to happen. If he hadn't met them and they hadn't helped him steal DeWitt's baby girl then none of the crazy-town shit would have happened. The entire game is basically Robert Lutece trying to fix everything since he feels guilty over it. His sister is a Nihilist and doesn't actually give a shit.
Anyways, yeah - the Infertility shit basically started it all and he started going power crazy from his experiences with seeing alternate universes and possible futures with the tears. It all stemmed from his meeting with the Luteces and their experiments with the tears, which made him infertile and caused his deformed rapid aging to happen. If he hadn't met them and they hadn't helped him steal DeWitt's baby girl then none of the crazy-town shit would have happened. The entire game is basically Robert Lutece trying to fix everything since he feels guilty over it. His sister is a Nihilist and doesn't actually give a shit.