Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies

Tmac · Mar 20, 2021

Caliane said:
yeah, heres some more discussion on the topic.

"Why eth is still underrated."-reddit

that thread, has a couple interesting replies, via tweets.
This one is discussing developers. Eth just... crushes everything else.

lots of charts and data in that tweet thread.

Then theres this one, discussing EIP-1559 and proof of stake. This one is theorizing, when Eth swaps over to proof of stake, the price will skyrocket, and its being depreciated by being proof of work still. (also, points out, probably won't happen in 2021.) Some counter arguments against pos price as well.

How is the number of developers correlated to value and growth?

Also interesting point that $18b are paid out in fees, but that’s the value of Ethereum handed out in dollars, so that stat is a little misleading.

Jackie Treehorn · Mar 20, 2021

Rajaah said:
I've got four working laptops here to potentially mine. One of them is pretty beat-up and needs like $500 in repairs so I probably wouldn't use that one. The other 3 are all modern (two high-spec 2020 Lenovos, one mid-spec 2018 Lenovo). It'd obviously be a lot better if they were desktops, but I wonder what numbers I could do with them for mining if I ran all 3 simultaneously while sleeping / not home. It'd equate to about 15 hours a day. Laptops may not cut it...though on the 2020s I've got 32 GB RAM, i7 processors, solid video cards, etc. I'm willing to give it a shot. If it goes well (isn't incredibly slow), I'll get the fourth one repaired and get that one going too (presumably it'd eventually pay for itself).

What's the best thing to mine at this point, ETH or BTC?

Eth is the most profitable thing to mine right now.

WhatToMine - Crypto coins mining profit calculator compared to Ethereum Classic

Calculate how profitable it is to mine selected altcoins in comparison to ethereum or bitcoin

whattomine.com

Arden · Mar 20, 2021

People hesitate to buy Eth because it's around $1,800 and they think it has limited upside compared to coins that cost pennies or a dollar. But the way you have to look at it is this: there are lots of reasons to believe that Eth will surpass BTC in the near future (next couple years). BTC is at 58k and a long way from being done in terms of increasing in value.

So if you could go back in time and buy BTC at $1,800, what would you do? You'd pour every fucking dime you had into it obviously. That's how I feel about Eth now.

Tmac · Mar 20, 2021

Arden said:
People hesitate to buy Eth because it's around $1,800 and they think it has limited upside compared to coins that cost pennies or a dollar. But the way you have to look at it is this: there are lots of reasons to believe that Eth will surpass BTC in the near future (next couple years). BTC is at 58k and a long way from being done in terms of increasing in value.

So if you could go back in time and buy BTC at $1,800, what would you do? You'd pour every fucking dime you had into it obviously. That's how I feel about Eth now.

Why are people wrong in thinking ETH has less room to grow than BTC?

BTC is a store of value and that’s the pull there. All of the contracts stuff theorized around ETH ain’t happening. So, what’s the draw?

Arden · Mar 20, 2021

Tmac said:
Why are people wrong in thinking ETH has less room to grow than BTC?

BTC is a store of value and that’s the pull there. All of the contracts stuff theorized around ETH ain’t happening. So, what’s the draw?

I'm very much not an expert, but here's what I've gathered from people who are experts as to why Eth will eventually surpass BTC in value:

1. BTC's environmental footprint limits its upside. Right now the environmental footprint issue affects ALL crypto. For example, "ArtStation, an online marketplace for digital artists, canceled its plans to launch a platform for NFTs within hours after getting a lot of backlash from people who think dealing in crypto art is environmentally unethical. Artists called NFTs an “ecological nightmare pyramid scheme” ". That's from a March 15 Verge article. Now, NFTs are built on Eth, so obviously the environmental footprint issue is affecting more than just BTC at the moment. But as you know, Eth is moving to PoS. Once that happens, Eth's environmental footprint will drop more than 99%, solving the "ecological nightmare" issue. However, BTC will still be dealing with it (and stigmatized by it). As I previously mentioned, I think this is a HUGE benefit for Eth. Regardless of how you (as an individual) feel about environmental issues, there is no question that they are going to be a hot button issue for the foreseeable future, and the fact that Eth is going green within the next year makes it enormously attractive.

2. When Eth moves to Eth 2.0, transactions will "burn" a certain amount of Eth each transaction (effectively removing that Eth from circulation). With enough Eth transactions, Eth will eventually become a deflationary currency- meaning more Eth is being destroyed each year than generated. This alone would steadily increase the value of Eth.

3. PoS means that owning/holding Eth generates income. Instead of paying miners, people (stakeholders) get paid to just hold Eth. I think you need 32 Eth to be an actual stakeholder, but even if you have less Eth than that, tons of places will let you join their "pool" and get paid to store your Eth with them. Honestly, why would you sink your money into BTC, which pays nothing, when you could put your money into Eth and generate daily income for doing nothing but holding Eth?

4. I've mentioned this before, but the whole DeFi system is pretty much built on Eth. NFTs, which are big and will only get bigger, are built on Eth. When you sell an NFT, you get paid in Eth. As Eth becomes much more usable with Eth 2.0, this trend will only increase.

5. From what I've seen, institutional investment in crypto has been shifting from "just BTC," to "mostly BTC with a little Eth," to (now) "majority Eth with slightly less BTC." One way or the other, for crypto to continue to grow it requires more institutional investment. The fact that institutions are beginning to value Eth over BTC tells me that they realize Eth has far more practical value than BTC- both now and in the future. This is borne out by the fact that Eth has actually outperformed BTC when you look at the percentage increase over the last several months. (EDIT: BTC has increased ~900% in the last year, while Eth has increased ~1,400%)

Here's my thing: I believe that Eth is ultimately going to be the most valuable crypto. But even if it isn't- even if it never surpasses BTC- it's going to continue to rise alongside BTC via sympathy. So worst case scenario, you only 10X your investment over the next few years instead of 500X. That doesn't sound that bad to me...

Threelions · Mar 20, 2021

Agree with all points stated. ETH is undervalued below 2k, easy.

Tmac · Mar 20, 2021

Arden said:
I'm very much not an expert, but here's what I've gathered from people who are experts as to why Eth will eventually surpass BTC in value:

1. BTC's environmental footprint limits its upside. Right now the environmental footprint issue affects ALL crypto. For example, "ArtStation, an online marketplace for digital artists, canceled its plans to launch a platform for NFTs within hours after getting a lot of backlash from people who think dealing in crypto art is environmentally unethical. Artists called NFTs an “ecological nightmare pyramid scheme” ". That's from a March 15 Verge article. Now, NFTs are built on Eth, so obviously the environmental footprint issue is affecting more than just BTC at the moment. But as you know, Eth is moving to PoS. Once that happens, Eth's environmental footprint will drop more than 99%, solving the "ecological nightmare" issue. However, BTC will still be dealing with it (and stigmatized by it). As I previously mentioned, I think this is a HUGE benefit for Eth. Regardless of how you (as an individual) feel about environmental issues, there is no question that they are going to be a hot button issue for the foreseeable future, and the fact that Eth is going green within the next year makes it enormously attractive.

2. When Eth moves to Eth 2.0, transactions will "burn" a certain amount of Eth each transaction (effectively removing that Eth from circulation). With enough Eth transactions, Eth will eventually become a deflationary currency- meaning more Eth is being destroyed each year than generated. This alone would steadily increase the value of Eth.

3. PoS means that owning/holding Eth generates income. Instead of paying miners, people (stakeholders) get paid to just hold Eth. I think you need 32 Eth to be an actual stakeholder, but even if you have less Eth than that, tons of places will let you join their "pool" and get paid to store your Eth with them. Honestly, why would you sink your money into BTC, which pays nothing, when you could put your money into Eth and generate daily income for doing nothing but holding Eth?

4. I've mentioned this before, but the whole DeFi system is pretty much built on Eth. NFTs, which are big and will only get bigger, are built on Eth. When you sell an NFT, you get paid in Eth. As Eth becomes much more usable with Eth 2.0, this trend will only increase.

5. From what I've seen, institutional investment in crypto has been shifting from "just BTC," to "mostly BTC with a little Eth," to (now) "majority Eth with slightly less BTC." One way or the other, for crypto to continue to grow it requires more institutional investment. The fact that institutions are beginning to value Eth over BTC tells me that they realize Eth has far more practical value than BTC- both now and in the future. This is borne out by the fact that Eth has actually outperformed BTC when you look at the percentage increase over the last several months. (EDIT: BTC has increased ~900% in the last year, while Eth has increased ~1,400%)

Here's my thing: I believe that Eth is ultimately going to be the most valuable crypto. But even if it isn't- even if it never surpasses BTC- it's going to continue to rise alongside BTC via sympathy. So worst case scenario, you only 10X your investment over the next few years instead of 500X. That doesn't sound that bad to me...

What’s the daily income for holding 32+ ETH and how have you been tracking institutional investments? A lot of them aren’t even backing crypto and the ones that are only have like 3%-5% of their portfolio in them (quoting a podcast who would know).

Arden · Mar 20, 2021

Tmac said:
What’s the daily income for holding 32+ ETH and how have you been tracking institutional investments? A lot of them aren’t even backing crypto and the ones that are only have like 3%-5% of their portfolio in them (quoting a podcast who would know).

From what I gather, the interest for staking Eth varies, depending on how much is being staked (globally I mean). I've seen several places that will pay you 10% yearly to stake your Eth, and they pay out daily (I think). But you don't need to have 32 Eth for that- they will stake whatever amount you have. I would guess if you have your own node (32 Eth required for that), you'd make significantly more than 10% per year.

Frankly, 10% per year isn't super exciting to me right now. Suppose I have 10 Eth, which is pretty feasible at today's prices. If I make 10% a year staking that, I make what, about $150 per month? Not bad for totally passive income, but nothing to celebrate.

The interesting thing to me is if Eth goes the way of BTC (which I think it will). Suppose Eth was worth 60k per coin like BTC is now. Then things get way more fun. Then you are looking at roughly $5,000 per month of totally passive income for staking 10 Eth. That would be a big deal. Not only do I think it's possible that Eth eventually gets to 60k, I think it will get there fast and then move beyond (again, just my opinion).

Pretty easy to get excited about Eth when you stating thinking about that. And it's not like this is super speculative. People are already making money staking Eth.

As far as institutional investments, my info is strictly anecdotal. As in I get it just from reading the financial news every day and I've noticed a trend of institutions moving away from BTC and towards Eth. Again though, if you look at how Eth has outperformed BTC over the last year by quite a bit, it bears that anecdotal evidence out.

I have no doubt that your podcast is totally right about the relatively low percentage that companies are allocating to crypto, but that just makes me even more optimistic about crypto's growth potential. It makes me think that as more companies come on board and invest more of their portfolio into crypto, both Eth and BTC are going to explode in value. Bank of America strategists recently suggested to Bloomberg that the price of BTC can be moved 1% for just $93 million.... think about that. 93 mil is nothing.

After I made my last post I found this vid, which explains a lot of the points I was trying to make (better than I can)

OU Ariakas · Mar 20, 2021

Arden said:
I'm very much not an expert, but here's what I've gathered from people who are experts as to why Eth will eventually surpass BTC in value:

1. BTC's environmental footprint limits its upside. Right now the environmental footprint issue affects ALL crypto. For example, "ArtStation, an online marketplace for digital artists, canceled its plans to launch a platform for NFTs within hours after getting a lot of backlash from people who think dealing in crypto art is environmentally unethical. Artists called NFTs an “ecological nightmare pyramid scheme” ". That's from a March 15 Verge article. Now, NFTs are built on Eth, so obviously the environmental footprint issue is affecting more than just BTC at the moment. But as you know, Eth is moving to PoS. Once that happens, Eth's environmental footprint will drop more than 99%, solving the "ecological nightmare" issue. However, BTC will still be dealing with it (and stigmatized by it). As I previously mentioned, I think this is a HUGE benefit for Eth. Regardless of how you (as an individual) feel about environmental issues, there is no question that they are going to be a hot button issue for the foreseeable future, and the fact that Eth is going green within the next year makes it enormously attractive.

2. When Eth moves to Eth 2.0, transactions will "burn" a certain amount of Eth each transaction (effectively removing that Eth from circulation). With enough Eth transactions, Eth will eventually become a deflationary currency- meaning more Eth is being destroyed each year than generated. This alone would steadily increase the value of Eth.

3. PoS means that owning/holding Eth generates income. Instead of paying miners, people (stakeholders) get paid to just hold Eth. I think you need 32 Eth to be an actual stakeholder, but even if you have less Eth than that, tons of places will let you join their "pool" and get paid to store your Eth with them. Honestly, why would you sink your money into BTC, which pays nothing, when you could put your money into Eth and generate daily income for doing nothing but holding Eth?

4. I've mentioned this before, but the whole DeFi system is pretty much built on Eth. NFTs, which are big and will only get bigger, are built on Eth. When you sell an NFT, you get paid in Eth. As Eth becomes much more usable with Eth 2.0, this trend will only increase.

5. From what I've seen, institutional investment in crypto has been shifting from "just BTC," to "mostly BTC with a little Eth," to (now) "majority Eth with slightly less BTC." One way or the other, for crypto to continue to grow it requires more institutional investment. The fact that institutions are beginning to value Eth over BTC tells me that they realize Eth has far more practical value than BTC- both now and in the future. This is borne out by the fact that Eth has actually outperformed BTC when you look at the percentage increase over the last several months. (EDIT: BTC has increased ~900% in the last year, while Eth has increased ~1,400%)

Here's my thing: I believe that Eth is ultimately going to be the most valuable crypto. But even if it isn't- even if it never surpasses BTC- it's going to continue to rise alongside BTC via sympathy. So worst case scenario, you only 10X your investment over the next few years instead of 500X. That doesn't sound that bad to me...

So if you think all of these potential things about ETH are cool then why wouldn't you also be high on TRX? It is already proof of stake, it's fuel costs are ridiculously low (even after a 3.5x increase last month), and there are already DeFi's abound on it, and it is supposedly 80x as fast

Arden · Mar 20, 2021

OU Ariakas said:
So if you think all of these potential things about ETH are cool then why wouldn't you also be high on TRX? It is already proof of stake, it's fuel costs are ridiculously low (even after a 3.5x increase last month), and there are already DeFi's abound on it, and it is supposedly 80x as fast

Don't know a ton about Tron, but your arguments for it are pretty much the same arguments people make for ADA. They aren't bad arguments, but I personally don't think either TRX or ADA are going to catch Eth for reasons both

LachiusTZ and

Flobee mentioned previously:

-Market cap
-Inertia
-Centralization factors/governance

You'll have to ask Flobee what he means, but I think the market cap and inertia arguments alone are enough to keep Eth ahead.

On a side note, Justin Sun of Tron has a really bad rep for being a grifter- not that that means you can't make money with TRX, but I'd be concerned about any ideas of long-term value.

OU Ariakas · Mar 20, 2021

Arden said:
Don't know a ton about Tron, but your arguments for it are pretty much the same arguments people make for ADA. They aren't bad arguments, but I personally don't think either TRX or ADA are going to catch Eth for reasons both LachiusTZ and Flobee mentioned previously:

-Market cap
-Inertia
-Centralization factors/governance

You'll have to ask Flobee what he means, but I think the market cap and inertia arguments alone are enough to keep Eth ahead.

On a side note, Justin Sun of Tron has a really bad rep for being a grifter- not that that means you can't make money with TRX, but I'd be concerned about any ideas of long-term value.

I got in to Tron years ago on a buddy's suggestion and really dont have a strong opinion on it vs ETH. I just like to hear the responses.

Hell, I have 1000 bucks in BitTorrent token simply because I used their client for years after college. It shot up 70% yesterday for no goddamn reason.

Rajaah · Mar 20, 2021

Arden said:
From what I gather, the interest for staking Eth varies, depending on how much is being staked (globally I mean). I've seen several places that will pay you 10% yearly to stake your Eth, and they pay out daily (I think). But you don't need to have 32 Eth for that- they will stake whatever amount you have. I would guess if you have your own node (32 Eth required for that), you'd make significantly more than 10% per year.

Frankly, 10% per year isn't super exciting to me right now. Suppose I have 10 Eth, which is pretty feasible at today's prices. If I make 10% a year staking that, I make what, about $150 per month? Not bad for totally passive income, but nothing to celebrate.

The interesting thing to me is if Eth goes the way of BTC (which I think it will). Suppose Eth was worth 60k per coin like BTC is now. Then things get way more fun. Then you are looking at roughly $5,000 per month of totally passive income for staking 10 Eth. That would be a big deal. Not only do I think it's possible that Eth eventually gets to 60k, I think it will get there fast and then move beyond (again, just my opinion).

Pretty easy to get excited about Eth when you stating thinking about that. And it's not like this is super speculative. People are already making money staking Eth.

As far as institutional investments, my info is strictly anecdotal. As in I get it just from reading the financial news every day and I've noticed a trend of institutions moving away from BTC and towards Eth. Again though, if you look at how Eth has outperformed BTC over the last year by quite a bit, it bears that anecdotal evidence out.

I have no doubt that your podcast is totally right about the relatively low percentage that companies are allocating to crypto, but that just makes me even more optimistic about crypto's growth potential. It makes me think that as more companies come on board and invest more of their portfolio into crypto, both Eth and BTC are going to explode in value. Bank of America strategists recently suggested to Bloomberg that the price of BTC can be moved 1% for just $93 million.... think about that. 93 mil is nothing.

After I made my last post I found this vid, which explains a lot of the points I was trying to make (better than I can)

I'm liking the sound of all of this. Was already thinking about staking ethereum once I'm done buying. I've only got like $700 in it now because I spread the money around. Most of it went to BTC and the rest got split between Eth, Maker, Mana, Dash, and ADA. So my idea is to drop another $1300 or 2300 in Eth and then stake that nice round number and let it get interest/gain value over time. I have a LOT more in BTC than in anything else though. I'd prefer to focus on one or the other as a main investment, but it looks like they'll both be splitting my investments for the foreseeable future. Once I get Eth up to where BTC is maybe I'll 50/50 it.

Is LiteCoin still worth getting? I know the conventional wisdom seems to be no, but I'm considering a smaller investment there (like $300) just in case it ever takes off. If its time has passed, though, eh.

Arden · Mar 20, 2021

Rajaah said:
I'm liking the sound of all of this. Was already thinking about staking ethereum once I'm done buying. I've only got like $700 in it now because I spread the money around. Most of it went to BTC and the rest got split between Eth, Maker, Mana, Dash, and ADA. So my idea is to drop another $1300 or 2300 in Eth and then stake that nice round number and let it get interest/gain value over time. I have a LOT more in BTC than in anything else though. I'd prefer to focus on one or the other as a main investment, but it looks like they'll both be splitting my investments for the foreseeable future. Once I get Eth up to where BTC is maybe I'll 50/50 it.

Is LiteCoin still worth getting? I know the conventional wisdom seems to be no, but I'm considering a smaller investment there (like $300) just in case it ever takes off. If its time has passed, though, eh.

Haven't looked into it a lot, but nothing I've read about LiteCoin makes me want to divert money from other investments into it.

Haus · Mar 20, 2021

My question is if staking makes you more APY than you'd make just hodl'ing it over on BlockFi...

Apparently in the EU there's also a service called SwissBorg which is dong much better on returns, but unavailable in the US yet...

Lambourne · Mar 21, 2021

Why would anyone pay 6% interest to have people loan them non-productive assets like Bitcoin? 8.6% on a pegged- to-the-dollar USDC? Ponzi is an overused word in crypto but this has all the markings of one.

Caliane · Mar 21, 2021

well, presumably they are operating like a bank?

They take your money, give you a % interest. Then loan that money out to someone else, who shorts/invests, it.. and then, pays the "bank" back an interest rate.
So blockfi is probably getting 10-20% from their loans, and giving you 6% for your BTC.
6% sounds high.. but Idk, savings accounts back in the 80's were 6-9%.

Staking varies.
eth example
about 7.5% for a pool. 8.8% solo stake. 7.3% in an exchange./ (after 15% exchange fee.)

Ethereum (ETH) Staking Rewards Calculator: Earn ∼3.54% | Staking Rewards

Explore the best options to stake your ETH. Compare Ethereum staking reward rates, view key metrics & calculate your rewards over time.

www.stakingrewards.com

Anyone staking yet? Remember ADA is proof of stake. for those that just got it on Coinbase. you can stake it. (not on coinbase, or kraken though.)

Solo staking means, your keys, your wallet.
blockfi, pool staking, exchange staking all mean you need to trust them with your keys.

Haus · Mar 21, 2021

I'm doing ADA staking in Daedalus wallet. It pays out per epoch, so I'm waiting a month and seeing what 6 epochs pay out. But since it would just be sitting in the wallet anyways it's essentially "free money".

Rajaah · Mar 21, 2021

How secure is Coinbase? As in, people who have large sums of money in their Coinbase wallet, what are the odds of getting hacked and losing your life savings?

Lambourne · Mar 21, 2021

Rajaah said:
How secure is Coinbase? As in, people who have large sums of money in their Coinbase wallet, what are the odds of getting hacked and losing your life savings?

Not your keys, not your coins as they say. Any crypto in an exchange is going to be vulnerable to systemic risks, like an exchange collapsing due to the equivalent of a bank run.

Some exchanges have FDIC insurance but it applies only to US Dollar holdings.

Threelions · Mar 21, 2021

Rajaah said:
How secure is Coinbase? As in, people who have large sums of money in their Coinbase wallet, what are the odds of getting hacked and losing your life savings?

I used to keep all of my funds on the exchange, but realized it’s just not worth it in the end. Look into Trezor or ledger products for cold storage. Unless you are trading every day, keep your coins off the exchange.
Personally I keep my. BTC and ETH and ADA off the exchange and play with $Link and MANA daily on Coinbase pro.

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