Breaking Bad

khalid_sl said:

You aren't interested in being shown one. Spronk showed several, all of which you try and weasel out into "action" instead of "analysis".

You asked Spronk if he had watched the episodes. If you don't think Walt can deceive himself based on his pride, I have to ask if YOU have been watching the show.

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Bullshit, "weasel". Show me a situation where Walt LIED to himself about the realities against him. Spronk's didn't show that, at all. In fact, his analysis of Gustavo's was laughably inaccurate. I'll get you the episode number, and time slot (On Netflix) where Walter details his plan.

Again, show me a situation where Walt fucking lied about the reality of a situation in order to convince himself to do something.

Krazy8? No lies there. He WANTED to let him go, then he saw the plate piece was missing and had to face the truth of the situation.

Tuco? No lies. He didn't lie to himself that Tuco was dangerous--he brought a bomb with him because he understood that.

Gustavo? As said above, Spronk didn't even watch these episodes apprently.

You can't give me one, so you're attempting to justify your bullshit with me mincing words. I'm not. I'm being VERY clear--never has Walter had to changed the reality of a situation, in his own mind, in order to justify his reaction (Even if his reaction is psychotic.) Give me a situation where Walt changed what actually happened in order to justify himself. Walter's ego has never needed that. He's perfectly capable of taking ego driven, overreactionswithouthaving to distort reality. The impetus for the meth business was money, for example. The actual need for money was real, Walters REACTION to it is where his pride came in. But Walt didn't just fucking make up the need for money.

And that's what this quote, says.

spronk_sl said:

Walt has respun the past so that Gretchen cheated on him and conspired with Elliot to steal his share of the company, none of which is probably true.[/B]

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So that goes back to the original point, why would ANYONE think Walt is "lying" to himself about whatever happened and Gray Matter? The more likely scenario is what happened was normal relationship stuff and Walt overeacted to it--but actually misrepresent what happened in order to "justify" it? Never been in the fucking show.

not gonna bother continuing to argue, you seem pretty sure of yourself. re: fring, you should probably rewatch those episodes yourself. as i said, walts results were ultimately justified but he was completely wrong at the beginning of the season, mistaking jesses new position as a move against walt when it was part of the move against the cartel. yes, he was right that fring tricked jesse with the fakeout car robbery, but for the wrong reasons. only after walt kept really fucking things up (bringing in hank, keep visiting pollos, trying to get jesse to kill gus, showing up at gus' house with a gun, etc) did fring have to move against walt. even then he kept his promise to jesse and just brought him out to the desert and told him he is done, but walt still couldn't just let go and walk away.

the point being that walt read fring as if fring was walt - if someone crosses you, you kill them. lydia is a hyper version of this. fring and mike weren't really like this at all, they had the sort of gangster code of ethics; treat people right until they fuck up, always honor your debts, your word is your bond, etc. walt also kept comparing himself to fring but as we saw in season 5, he was a poor, poor replacement.

as mike said before he died, if walt had shut the fuck up, known his place, and just cooked all of them would have been just fine.

Lithose_sl said:

So that goes back to the original point, why would ANYONE think Walt is "lying" to himself about whatever happened and Gray Matter? The more likely scenario is what happened was normal relationship stuff and Walt overeacted to it--but lie to himself? Never been in the fucking show.

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So Walt overreacted but didn't lie to himself? Lol, talk about trying to argue semantics.

khalid_sl said:

So Walt overreacted but didn't lie to himself? Lol, talk about trying to argue semantics.

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Read the quote, it's not a semantic argument. Just because your reading comphrension brought you bumbling into the thread and then kept you from understanding a basic premise, doesn't mean we were having a semantic debate.

spronk_sl said:

Walt has respun the past so that Gretchen cheated on him and conspired with Elliot to steal his share of the company,none of which is probably true.[/B]

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Overeaction to a real problem, and MAKING UP a problem, are two different things. Sorry you believe that's just semantics, but it's not.

Lithose_sl said:

Read the quote, it's not a semantic argument.

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Yes it is, and I will ignore your petty insults. So you think that Walt overreacted and blames them for normal relationship stuff? That IS lying to yourself.

You simply want to see Walt as some sort of supergenius that never misjudges a situation or lies to himself. That is just not what the show has shown. Sorry.

BrutulTM_sl said:

When you look back at this post, and the rest of them in this thread this afternoon, and consider that it is basically a semantic argument about a TV show with a person that you will never meet, does it seem like a good use of time?

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Read the above post. If I can educate just a few people on what semantics mean, I feel it's not wasted time. You might be a lost cause though--considering you're just posting because your shtick is reacting to a popular thread.

khalid_sl said:

Yes it is, and I will ignore your petty insults. So you think that Walt overreacted and blames them for normal relationship stuff? That IS lying to yourself.

You simply want to see Walt as some sort of supergenius that never misjudges a situation or lies to himself. That is just not what the show has shown. Sorry.

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Look at what I was responding to.

spronk_sl said:

Walthas respun the pastso that Gretchen cheated on him and conspired with Elliot to steal his share of the company,none of which is probably true.[/B]

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An overreaction a relationship problem, isnotthe same as making up a fabrication about a relationship problem and then using that distortion to justify leaving. Which is why I said, in my first post, it surprised me people would assume Walter "made something up"--when he's never done that in the show, ever. Rather, the typical assumption, based on his character, should have been that he had reactedpoorlyto a problem within the company and then chose not to talk about it/resolve it because of his pride--My guess being Gretchen's parents withholding funding.

A post I made, multiple times--clearly illustrating I believed Walter made a mistake. So much for me thinking he's just a super genius! In fact, the post was in response to YOU.

Lithose_sl said:

True. But that's the theme of the whole show, it's all Shakespear based tragedies--tons of bad stuff all based off of no one talking to each other. If I had to guess, Walt really loved Gretchen, and maybe expected her to follow him, and really press for the truth--but maybe she was upset, and angry and instead went to Eliot for comfort, and that further pissed Walter off (Reinforcing the notion that she agreed with her family.) In that case, I'd say it wasalso(But not totally) Gretchen's fault simply because she profited from Walt's work, while being in love, without ever caring enough to dig for the truth--while he "took one for the team" and went his own way to save her from grief and keep their dream alive.

All conjecture, but given Giligan's use of tragic drama? It feels like his kind of sentiment.Both people were wrong, and the problem was made worse by no one talking.

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You can click the quote link and see, you responded to it, even.

Then I went on to respond to Spronk about why he would assume Walt "made something up"--when EVERY action in Breaking Bad had the impetus stemming from reality and Walter simply over reacting to it. Which then you bumbled in.

So the delineation between "over reaction" and "making stuff up" was clear, and concise--and thoroughly explained. You came in, attempt to argue a point, got shot down, then tried to say "lulz it's all semantics!" But it isn't and I'm not sure if you understand what that word even means.

Lith, i dont know why you keep overlooking jesse. walt can see that gus is using jesse. walt can see that gale is walt's replacement. but walt cant see that jesse has been the monkey wrench in all his plans. he even refused when his own wife said to kill jesse. that decision got hank killed. how is that not a misreading from walt? just admit walt has made big mistakes in that regard.

Lithose_sl said:

An overreaction, to say, a relationship problem, is not the same was throwing a fit and leaving the company over a relationship problem.

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It isn't the same, but it is only a difference in degree.

Lithose_sl said:

You came in, attempt to argue a point, got shot down, then tried to say "lulz it's all semantics!" But it isn't and I'm not sure if you understand what that word even means.

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You came in, claimed that Walt never lies to himself, got shot down, and then start to try and weasel down what "lying to himself" means. He constructed a scenario in his head in which he was wronged, even though it was just normal relationship stuff. That IS lying to himself, but at this point I doubt you even understand what those words mean. See, we can do petty insults all day since you like it so much.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

just admit walt has made big mistakes in that regard.

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Chuk dropping the knowledge bombs. Who would ever have thought.

khalid_sl said:

You came in, claimed that Walt never lies to himself, got shot down, and then start to try and weasel down what "lying to himself" means. He constructed a scenario in his head in which he was wronged, even though it was just normal relationship stuff. That IS lying to himself, but at this point I doubt you even understand what those words mean. See, we can do petty insults all day since you like it so much.

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Lithose_sl said:

He WILL distort, and change facets in order to manipulate the situation to achieve a goal he desires--but never to "convince himself" that X or Y happened.

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Derp. Care to say anything else that's written plainly in black and white?

Walter has NEVER attempted to alter the reality of a situation to justify his actions. Link back to that quote, see this has been a constant since the beginning--with my first set of posts openly stating Walt's ego, pride and a host of other issues has him overeact, and manipulate situations with distortions--but never just creating problems out of thin air.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

Lith, i dont know why you keep overlooking jesse. walt can see that gus is using jesse. walt can see that gale is walt's replacement. but walt cant see that jesse has been the monkey wrench in all his plans. he even refused when his own wife said to kill jesse. that decision got hank killed. how is that not a misreading from walt? just admit walt has made big mistakes in that regard.

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So, like what I said, Chuk?

Lithose_sl said:

See the difference? Spronk saidhe made some shit up just to justify his actions. Walt's never done anything remotely like that. WaltHAStaken actions that were wrong. WaltHASunderestimated people. Walt HAS completely blown his response out of proportion due to his pride. But Walt hasneverhad to distort the reality of a situation to convince himself of any of those things. He's very comfortable letting his pride dictate horrible reactions WITHOUT having to lie about what happened.

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Again, first post clearly stated Walt distorts things. I've said multiple times that Walt miscalculates. The problem is believing Walt makes shit up--it's not about him calculating the perfect response. I've said this like 5 times, Astro. The problem is saying he just "made up" shit at Gray Matter to support his reaction. And that's never happened. Walter has always seen things for what they are--his REACTION might be wrong, sure. He misjudged Jesse. But he didn't just say "Jesse is probably my long lost son, so I will never kill him despite what a fuck up he is."---Did he? No, he KNEW Jesse was a screw up, he judged that well--it was his reaction that was the problem.

(They are)

spronk_sl said:

not gonna bother continuing to argue, you seem pretty sure of yourself. re: fring, you should probably rewatch those episodes yourself. as i said, walts results were ultimately justified but he was completely wrong at the beginning of the season, mistaking jesses new position as a move against walt when it was part of the move against the cartel. yes, he was right that fring tricked jesse with the fakeout car robbery, but for the wrong reasons. only after walt kept really fucking things up (bringing in hank, keep visiting pollos, trying to get jesse to kill gus, showing up at gus' house with a gun, etc) did fring have to move against walt. even then he kept his promise to jesse and just brought him out to the desert and told him he is done, but walt still couldn't just let go and walk away.

the point being that walt read fring as if fring was walt - if someone crosses you, you kill them. lydia is a hyper version of this. fring and mike weren't really like this at all, they had the sort of gangster code of ethics; treat people right until they fuck up, always honor your debts, your word is your bond, etc. walt also kept comparing himself to fring but as we saw in season 5, he was a poor, poor replacement.

as mike said before he died, if walt had shut the fuck up, known his place, and just cooked all of them would have been just fine.

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All of this, Spronk...Where did Walt "make up" something though? We can argue over whether his analysis of the situation wascorrect(I think you're delusional if you believe Gustavo wasn't going to off Walt as soon as he was stable.) and that's fine--thatreally comes down to opinion.

But where did Walt "make up" an element of what happened? He just doesn't do that, at all, throughout the series. Often times, his analysis are grounded in reality and pretty thorough--it's his reactions which are off the wall and can be emotional, poor and ego driven. Again, we could argue that Walt has made mistakes in guessing people's motives (Like Gus') but he has never simply said "X happened" when it clearlydidn't.

Which goes back to the original point, like 3 people in this thread have said Walt probably just made the Gray Matter beef up....I'm not sure where that comes from. It's not in his nature, at all. Walt's usually very good about analyzing what is happening--even you said, his analysis of Fring was spot on, but you believe his guess at Fring's motives was incorrect. And again, that's a valid opinion--but no where did he just "make up" something Fring did to support his assertions. All of his assertions were grounded in real, rational, events. So why do we now assume he just made shit up and Gray Matter so he could get real angry and justify his over reaction?

Is it far MORE likely that bad stuff went down at Gray Matter, and Walt took his reaction to it to an extreme. This is more in line with almost every situation in the show thus far.

Tuco_sl said:

This is a fictional TV show and Walt's genius switches with idiocy serves as a way to continue and create plot. Attempting to fit an undefined system of chaos into a box and make an argument from that is a waste of time. Predicting what he'll do and what will happen is fun (even if a humbling experience, see: this thread's contest) but now that the show is over you may as well be arguing whether Gandalf and Dumbledore are gay for each other.

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Again, though--the argument wasn't about Walt being a super genius and always predicting everything perfectly. It was questioning where people saw something in Walt's character that would just have him make up something in a situation. Walt has done a lot of dumb stuff--he over reacts, lets pride drive his decisions, lets his ego overtake his need for safety--a lot of stuff to "drive the plot forward". But one thing we never saw was him looking at a situation, and adding something that was a complete fabrication, JUST to convince himself to take action.

It's completely out of left field. It's like saying Walt's feuge state in S1 was real, and the whole show is a coma induced dream---I mean, I guess it's plausible? Butnothingsupports it.

Walt got pulled over for a cracked windshield. Instead of yes officering and going on his way, he blew his stack. The officer told him to stay in his car. Walt got out. The officer told him to stop yelling. Walt got maced. I think Walt misjudged his ability to reason his way out of a ticket.

Drtyrm_sl said:

Walt got pulled over for a cracked windshield. Instead of yes officering and going on his way, he blew his stack. The officer told him to stay in his car. Walt got out. The officer told him to stop yelling. Walt got maced. I think Walt misjudged his ability to reason his way out of a ticket.

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And when it was done, did Walt make something up to justify why he did what he did? Nope. Walt said the cop was kind of a dick about the windshield (He was) and the cop wouldn't budge despite Walt having a decent reason (He didn't.)--and then Walt over reacted, and completely blew the situation out of proportion. But Walt didn't just make shit up to justify his over reaction. He didn't tell Hank "jesus that cop tried to fuck me with his night stick so I fought back!", or something.