Breaking Bad

Ambiturner_sl said:

Walt's definitely not a monster. When he killed Mike, he immediately regretted it and showed obvious remorse. Mike was a hitman who was going to kill Walt on multiple occasions.

Hank's only mission in life was to bring Walt down. Even then Walt was willing to give himself and all his money up in order to protect him.

As shitty as poisoning a kid is, if the choices are either that or have your own family die, then as a father you have to do it. I'd poison a 1000 kids if it was the only way to save my own child's life.

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Walt didn't give a shit when he killed Mike.

As someone who has several kids, I can safely say I would not poison a thousand kids to maybe save one of them.

Ambiturner_sl said:

if the choices are either that or have your own family die, then as a father you have to do it. I'd poison a 1000 kids if it was the only way to save my own child's life.

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That would be a monstrous act if you did so.

What if I poisoned one of chaos' kids to save 1,000 african children?

Ubiquitrips_sl said:

I think the last 15 minutes of the show was all about showing Walt was not bad to the core. I think he intentionally took Holly to force the call at the end. In that call he basically put on the act that would separate Skyler and his family from any perceived wrong doing. She can stick to a 'life of fear' defense and just basically say she had to do it or else this would happen. He completely focused the entire blame on himself before skipping town without no doubt at all. It was clearly tearing him up inside because he didn't want to leave his family or say those things, but he had to protect them, and this is how.

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I didn't gather that Walt took Holly with any foresight. I saw it as being Walt taking the one member of his family not to turn on him, perhaps partially as a means of revenge on Skyler. Walt was too angry and offended to be thinking rationally at that point. It was typical Walt acting first and thinking later, and I don't think it was until he was in the restaurant bathroom and Holly started saying, "Mama" that Walt realized what he was doing to his family, which inspired him to make that call to Skyler.

chaos_sl said:

Walt didn't give a shit when he killed Mike.

As someone who has several kids, I can safely say I would not poison a thousand kids to maybe save one of them.

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Yeah, I wouldn't poison a thousand. However, I would use my noble prize winning chemistry knowledge to safely make a child ill for a few days in order to save my whole family.

Lithose_sl said:

Yeah, I wouldn't poison a thousand. However, I would use my noble prize winning chemistry knowledge to safely make a child ill for a few days in order to save my whole family.

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Or maybe accidentally kill him, because that's how that shit works as you well know. Are you seriously quoting his bullshit he was trying to use on Jesse? If Brock had died, Walt wouldn't have even been phased.

chaos_sl said:

Or maybe accidentally kill him, because that's how that shit works as you well know. Are you seriously quoting his bullshit he was trying to use on Jesse? If Brock had died, Walt wouldn't have even been phased.

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Is this another case of you saying something there no physical evidence of? Like how Walt would have eventually gone against Gustavo even without Jesse (Like you said earlier), even though in the show it was Walt who tried to stop Jesse, Walt who told Jesse not to rock the boat and sell meth on the side, Walt who was loyal to Gus even when Gus jeopardized Hank?

Kind of like that?

The fact is you do NOT know Walt would not have been phased. What we do know is Walt was awarded a world prominent prize for his chemistry ability, and has time and time again shown he is an absolute, unparallelled, genius in chemistry--and Walt measured out a precise dose that made the kid suffer ill effects that would fool Jesse into believeing it's Ricin, without killing him.

You're now judging the man on "ifs" and conjecture. Some of it on the flimsiest of evidence. What we ALSO know, is that when Gustavo ordered the killing of a child, it was WALT who went against him, while Jesse began working FOR him. (Read below.)

Slaythe_sl said:

It's also a pretty legitimate response from Jesse to freak out once he puts two and two together. Regardless of how you want to rationalize Walt's reason for doing it, he poisoned a kid Jesse had become close to and the only reason he did it was to manipulate Jesse.

If you're looking at it from our point of view and justify Walt's actions so be it, but Jesse has a pretty strong case for wanting to burn his house down.

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Jesse's actions supported a man who was going to kill Walt's whole family. Which is precisely what we're talking about. Jesse screams "omg he's a monster", but doesn't even flinch when he was an accomplice in doing farworseto Walter. And what's worse, he allowed those activities after Walt saved his life, and aided the supposed enemy that he was angry enough to risk all out war upon just a few episodes before (Read below). It's absurd and shows a clear sign he can't do an inventory on the repercussions of his actions.

I mean, lets take a look at this.

1.) Jesse goes into a rage because he learns, while selling Meth to recovering addicts (nice),GUSTAVO'smen killed his friend. (I think people don't fucking remember this, those guys wereprotected by Gus.)
2.) Tries to kill Gus's men, but is stopped by Walter--Gus wants to KILL Jesse, right there, but Walter protects him.
3.) GUSTAVO orders the boy's death, Jesse's own girlfriends brother.Gustavo orders a hit on 10 year old boy, a boy related to Jesse's girlfriend.
4.) Jesse goes into another rage and goes to kill the men who Gus ordered to kill the kid.
5.) Just before Jesse dies, Walter decides to throw down against Gus (The impetous for this action was SEEING the boy's death on the news), saving Jesse's life.
6.) Walter concocts a plan that makes them indispensable to Gus so they can't be killed BUT Walter realizes it's only a matter of time before Gus can find another cook and nudge them out and begins plotting against Gus. (Now it's important here to note: Walter is ONLY at this point because he realized Gus was a monster who killed that child, and he realized Jesse was right and decides to side with Jesse AGAINST, Gustavo.Reallyhave to take this point home, because the next step should blow your fucking mind.)

7.) Jesse's ego is stroked by Gustavo, so he turns against Walter and joins Gustavo. And supports Gustavo even as Walter's family is going to be slaughtered.

What. The. Fuck.

So Jesse is supporting the child murdering bastard that just a few weeks before he was adamant about going against. He's supporting the child murdering Gustavo, AFTER putting Walt in a situation where Walt had go against Gus. So really, by step 7, it's Walter who is fighting against the child killer, while Jesse is supporting him. Again, who the FUCK would defend Jesse at this point? What a shitty person.

Walt, somehow, manages to save Jesse, even though Jesse is supporting a child murdering monster, byonlymaking a single child sick. Jesse, on the other hand, works for a child murderer, betrays a friend who saved his life, aids the man who ordered the death of his girlfriends 10 year old brother (betraying her too), aids a man who is going to kill all of Walt's family---and somehow Walt is the fucking bad guy here?Seriously?

Think about it for JUST a minute, damn. Think of what an evil douche Jesse has to be to work for Gus after Gus orders that child killed. How anyone can say Jesse was not only the source of the problem, the escalation of it, and the hand that forced ALL of these actions by being such an ignorant, evil, douche bag is beyond me.

You guys should go back to marching for Trayvon's justice.

Lithose_sl said:

Is this another case of you saying something there no physical evidence of? Like how Walt would have eventually gone against Gustavo even without Jesse (Like you said earlier), even though in the show it was Walt who tried to stop Jesse, Walt who told Jesse not to rock the boat and sell meth on the side, Walt who was loyal to Gus even when Gus jeopardized Hank?

Kind of like that?

The fact is you do NOT know Walt would not have been phased. What we do know is Walt was awarded a world prominent prize for his chemistry ability, and has time and time again shown he is an absolute, unparallelled, genius in chemistry--and Walt measured out a precise dose that made the kid suffer ill effects that would fool Jesse into believeing it's Ricin, without killing him.

You're now judging the man on "ifs" and conjecture. Some of it on the flimsiest of evidence. What we ALSO know, is that when Gustavo ordered the killing of a child, it was WALT who went against him, while Jesse began working FOR him. (Read below.)

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Physical evidence of what may have happened in an alternate timeline on a fictional tv show? Nah bro, I don't have any of that. I don't have physical evidence that supporting a team that won a Nobel prize for proton radiography would know the precise amount of poison to give a 10 year old he met for all of 2 minutes either, but I kind of doubt that in addition to proton radiography he is also an expert in child poisoning. This discussion is getting pretty fucking gay.

Oh, Jesse is a sack of shit to be sure. Even through all of that you can still credit that Jesse is just making a host of poor, emotional decisions and is trying in some part to find a better way through the worst of himself. You can say, "He's not good.. but you know he's really notbadeither. He's just crazy dumb." His speech to the NA meeting is where he peaks. He shows, if not remorse, at least awareness and self-recrimination.

It's not until Jesse walks away from the red minivan. That's where Jesse's story ends. Everything else is epilogue for him. I'd say that Walts story ended last episode, when he finally came to terms with the practical reality. I guess holly being in pink all the time did pan out. We watched Walt "die" when he left her at the fire station.

Edit: It occurs to me that we haven't seen Walt cry very often. We've seen it rather tediously very early when he killed crazy-8 in the basement. We've seen him emotional since then I guess, but we haven't seen him really weep. In like that old feudal sense of "Men do not cry, but they do weep". We see it again, done rather well, in that phone call to Skylar.

To be fair, Gus was just as good (maybe even better) at manipulating Jesse as Walt is. He did the whole song and dance about how he he'd stop using children in appeasement of Jesse's demands. At that point, Jesse was just led to believe that it was the dealers acting under their own volition to kill Tomas (and, in fact, we were never shown Gus giving that order, so we can only suppose he did). It wasn't like Jesse realized Gus killed children and decided to team up with him anyways. If there's been one thing that has been extremely consistent about Jesse's character throughout the course of the show, it's his unwillingness to see children put in harm's way.

Iannis_sl said:

Oh, Jesse is a sack of shit to be sure. Even through all of that you can still credit that Jesse is just making a host of poor, emotional decisions and is trying in some part to find a better way through the worst of himself. You can say, "He's not good.. but you know he's really notbadeither. He's just crazy dumb." His speech to the NA meeting is where he peaks. He shows, if not remorse, at least awareness and self-recrimination.

It's not until Jesse walks away from the red minivan. That's where Jesse's story ends. Everything else is epilogue for him. I'd say that Walts story ended last episode, when he finally came to terms with the practical reality. I guess holly being in pink all the time did pan out. We watched Walt "die" when he left her at the fire station.

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During Hank's death, it was a textbook moment of Anagnorisis for Walter. It's part of Greek Tragedy where the "hero" comes to realize the truth of a situation. The most famous example is Oedipus, when he realized he was screwing his mother. When Walt saw Hank die, he realized, in that moment, his intentions of doing good for his family, at the cost of ALL else, were actually hurting his family.

Cantatus_sl said:

To be fair, Gus was just as good (maybe even better) at manipulating Jesse as Walt is. He did the whole song and dance about how he he'd stop using children in appeasement of Jesse's demands. At that point, Jesse was just led to believe that it was the dealers acting under their own volition to kill Tomas (and, in fact, we were never shown Gus giving that order, so we can only suppose he did). It wasn't like Jesse realized Gus killed children and decided to team up with him anyways. If there's been one thing that has been extremely consistent about Jesse's character throughout the course of the show, it's his unwillingness to see children put in harm's way.

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It doesn't matter, Gus's men, Gus says it will be taken care of--child winds up dead. Walt decides to go against Gus after that, Jesse decides to join him. Which is why I'm incredulous when people say Walt is a "worse" person before S5, he most certainly was not.

chaos_sl said:

I don't have any of that. I don't have physical evidence that supporting a team that won a Nobel prize for proton radiography would know the precise amount of poison to give a 10 year old he

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So the physical evidence of the child surviving is not physical evidence. kk, Chaos logic. Your judgement of Walter is based of "maybe" and "could", while you choose to look beyond Jesse's actual actions.

chaos_sl said:

Walt didn't give a shit when he killed Mike.

As someone who has several kids, I can safely say I would not poison a thousand kids to maybe save one of them.

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Walt had a "holy shit" look on his face and was apologizing to Mike over and over until Mike told him to shut up and let him die in peace. Rewatch the scene again if you honestly think he "didn't give a shit"

I guess that makes me a monster then. Poisoning a thousand kids would be a terrible thing to do, but if it was that or have my daughter die I would do it 100 out of 100 times. While the 1000 kids thing is a ridiculous scenario in the first place, you'd honestly let your own child die rather than poison a child you don't even know?

Walt convinced Jesse that it was Gus who poisoned Brock, getting him back on the Walt's side.