Captain America: Civil War (2016)

A private organization creates an AI that attempts, and almost succeeds in destroying the entire world, kills hundreds of people in the process and destroys an entire city, but it's all good because he created Vision (To combat an entity the world doesn't even know about?)

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That's not exactly what happened. It's still not clear how manipulated Tony was by the gem when he started the Ultron project.

The bigger picture may have always been for the Gem to find a host body.

An evil Nazi organization had the mind stone for months and did very little with it, the Avengers had the mind stone for a couple days and created an AI that very nearly destroyed the world

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Also not true, we only know of the Twins. There are other super humans they created we haven't seen yet.

Also "Witch" alone is more powerful then Ultron could ever imagine, and may be our greatest threat in the long run.

it's obvious the Avengers aren't just tackling 'life ending' events or big things...They are pretty much also an anti-terrorist organization. A U.S. based, heavily armed, special forces contingent that enters sovereign countries to hunt down terrorists.

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Another False statement, they are not fighting human terrorism. Every Scene we have seen them in they have been battling Hydra ( Who controls the mind gem, and other Super Humans, and more importantly can create those Super Humans) , and the remnants of Hydra such as Crossbones stealing the Super Serum at the start of the film.

It's a super organization versus another super organization. The Avengers aren't dismantling nukes like Superman did in his quest for peace....

Caliane_sl said:

should also be noted in Avengers 1, they were acting as concerned citizens, not a paramilitary force. A big difference between just helping out(avengers), being consultants/contractors for SHIELD(cap 2), and then finally their own independent military force(avengers 2 and here).


Much of that is not really relevant. Cap being right or wrong about all that is frankly beside the point of what actually happened. the entire world had evidence of Bucky blowing up the Embassy. Cap had evidence he was innocent, and told no one. Refused to come in, brief, turn over that info at all. Despite being pleaded with repeatedly. ZEMO himself, was the one that had to turn over evidence of his bullshit, to get Tony to follow him. the plot was not actually about registration. it was about Bucky being a terrorist.

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What evidence did Cap have that he didn't turn over?

He had none, it was just pure speculation based on prior events. Cap didn't even know of Zemo at that point.

There was nothing to turn over, and he wouldn't turn over Bucky to the US government either way.

Column_sl said:

He had none, it was just pure speculation based on prior events. Cap didn't even know of Zemo at that point.

There was nothing to turn over, and he wouldn't turn over Bucky to the US government either way.

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Exactly.

Captain was just doing things in order to prevent Bucky to be killed on sight over false charges without due process. And this is exactly why the oversight granted by the Accords is not acceptable. The United Nations and the public opinion only needed one photo of Zemo disguised as Bucky in the relative proximity of the bombing for them to go in a lethal manhunt.

And Stark only wants oversight because then he would no longer be accountable for his actions because he can't deal with the guilt of having civilian casualties while preventing an extinction level event.

Column_sl said:

That's not exactly what happened. It's still not clear how manipulated Tony was by the gem when he started the Ultron project.

The bigger picture may have always been for the Gem to find a host body.

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You're asking for extra perception from people in the world that even Avengers don't have (Even Tony doesn't know if he was being manipulated). We're going by what makes sense within the world the Avengers exist in--since the rest of the Avengers actually tried to stop Tony, it's really silly to have the world believe it was manipulation and forgive them for it. This is irrelevant to a reasonable reaction, fact is, it's very reasonable to believe the Avengers just screwed up here--it's very 'theoretical' to believe it was manipulation.

However,even if we give it to him here and say the mind stone took over his mind--could anyone else in the world have created an AI framework to give Ultron form? No, that was Tony's technology that gave Ultron his original AI design, and Banner. Without the Avengers, Ultron doesn't exist. If Thor had even a modicum of judgement and not left the stone with mortals, Ultron doesn't exist--consistent failures of judgement right down the chain lead to Ultron. This is why outside checks exists, because many people can not self evaluate their own poor judgement.

Column_sl said:

Also not true, we only know of the Twins. There are other super humans they created we haven't seen yet.

Also "Witch" alone is more powerful then Ultron could ever imagine, and may be our greatest threat in the long run.

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You realize we're going by what people see, in the film world, right? As in what someone in the world would know and understand. Not what YOU know as a comic book reader of events that have not happened yet (And might never happen). The twins were completely unknown to the world, even with their debut with the avengers they turned out to be 'good guys'.So evil Nazis create two 'good guys' and the Avengers create an evil AI that attempts to kill all life.

Do you find these two things at all comparable? really? (Btw, nothing scarlet witch has shown compares to Ultron's level of power with his ability to infect technology. Again, this is based off the comics, not what we see.)

Column_sl said:

Another False statement, they are not fighting human terrorism. Every Scene we have seen them in they have been battling Hydra ( Who controls the mind gem, and other Super Humans, and more importantly can create those Super Humans) , and the remnants of Hydra such as Crossbones stealing the Super Serum at the start of the film.

It's a super organization versus another super organization. The Avengers aren't dismantling nukes like Superman did in his quest for peace....

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Again, you're viewing this as someone who reads comics. Not as someone who would be in the world. It's a super organization against terrorists. No one in that little hit squad within Africa was at all a 'super human' enough to make the public believe they were any kind of super powers involved, at all. Not even a little bit. What was stolen was, to the public, a biological agent--something any terrorist organization would want.

Do you honestly believe otherwise? Do you believe Crossbones is really more than just a terrorist organization at this point? Even if you believe that, from the comics, if you were in this world and saw them dismantled by half the Avengers, would you believe they were 'super powered' individuals? I don't think so. What we see is the Avengers battling common terrorists.

That's a silly argument the whole way around. The media can manipulate anything they want to when it comes to the Avengers ,and the people in that world.

We have no clue what the average person thinks of the Avengers because the movies are entirely shot through the Marvel Heroes eyes.

The few times they do interact with the public a woman who's child died casts blame on Tony Stark? No matter what would have happened, Accords , or not that scenario goes down the same way...

Do you believe Crossbones is really more than just a terrorist organization at this point?

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Crossbones has always been Hydra... He's specifically stealing a Super Serum to continue that research.

That isn't what a terror network does...

Shield is still in existence, just underground. Cap gets his intel from Shield.

Column_sl said:

He had none, it was just pure speculation based on prior events. Cap didn't even know of Zemo at that point.

There was nothing to turn over, and he wouldn't turn over Bucky to the US government either way.

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not originally correct.
Refusing to sign=retirement, at first.

Cap then went off reservation to go personally find Bucky. Bucky, "I didn't do it". not even mind control, I couldn't control my actions. outright. "I didnt do it."
Orders were "shoot to kill". so you could justify Cap still being off orders to defend Bucky at this point.
But, they lose and get taken in alive. All should be well at this point. Bucky alive and in custody. Cap could solve everything at this point, by just testifying, and Bucky's own testimony. At no poing does Cap tell Tony, Bucky was framed. even with out evidance.
Zemo fucks everything over by impersonating the investigator. Cap figures this out immediately, tells no one. Goes down to Bucky, catches Zemo in the act. Tells no one. Neither he or Falcon stay behind to tell anyone what happened. They go after and capture Bucky. Get him in the vice thing. have a heart to heart about Soviet super soldiers, and again, tell no one, instead of clearing Buckys name.
There is outright a conversation between Falcon and Cap about telling Tony, and Cap says no.

Tony learns when Zemo himself spills the beans, by intentionally having his hotel room/murder scene found. At which point Tony immediately goes to find Cap, and fix everything.

Caps secrets and lack of trust is the cause of most of the conflict. Everyone else has every reason to think Bucky is a terrorist who just killed 90+ people including the king of Wakanda in a bomb, then murdered 20 more escaping custody.

Agents of Shield this week made it sound a lot more like a registration act (like the comics)...I don't think they once mentioned registration during the movie, did they? I can understand drawing a line in the sand over registration...it's drawing one because of oversight that seemed weak. And, yeah, Tony feeling guilty about some random kid but not hesitating shooting weapons at his friends was just weird. Maybe something got left on the cutting room floor about registration...I really hope that was their intent.

Cap could solve everything at this point, by just testifying, and Bucky's own testimony.

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Cap had no evidence that anything Bucky said was true. He just believed in him.

What exactly was he supposed to turn over that the US government couldn't have gotten themselves while the Winter Soldier was in custody?

At no poing does Cap tell Tony, Bucky was framed. even with out evidance.

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Why would Cap tell that to Tony? He doesn't even trust him.

Zemo fucks everything over by impersonating the investigator. Cap figures this out immediately, tells no one. Goes down to Bucky, catches Zemo in the act. Tells no one. Neither he or Falcon stay behind to tell anyone what happened. They go after and capture Bucky. Get him in the vice thing. have a heart to heart about Soviet super soldiers, and again, tell no one, instead of clearing Buckys name.
There is outright a conversation between Falcon and Cap about telling Tony, and Cap says no.

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They had already chosen sides at that point. Tony is no longer in the picture. What would Tony do for them exactly anyway?

They are wanted fugitives at this point that have broken out a Government instillation. Only Sharon Carter is protecting them, and she is well aware of everything. A person that works for the Government unlike Tony.

Column_sl said:

PFFT this all a ploy so Clint can start the West Coat Avengers, also known as the Best Avengers!

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Hells yeah!

Djay_sl said:

Agents of Shield this week made it sound a lot more like a registration act (like the comics)...I don't think they once mentioned registration during the movie, did they? I can understand drawing a line in the sand over registration...it's drawing one because of oversight that seemed weak. And, yeah, Tony feeling guilty about some random kid but not hesitating shooting weapons at his friends was just weird. Maybe something got left on the cutting room floor about registration...I really hope that was their intent.

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Yeah they fucked that up in the TV show.

Column_sl said:

That's a silly argument the whole way around. The media can manipulate anything they want to when it comes to the Avengers ,and the people in that world.

We have no clue what the average person thinks of the Avengers because the movies are entirely shot through the Marvel Heroes eyes.

The few times they do interact with the public a woman who's child died casts blame on Tony Stark? No matter what would have happened, Accords , or not that scenario goes down the same way...

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No, it's not, I never said a thing about media manipulation--I'm going by an incredibly accurate representation of events if the media was able to report every public event with no bias. You're right, with the static of media and manipulation, it would be a lot worse (As I said earlier, people are dumb.)

But even going by JUST what we saw in the films.

1.) There is precious little evidence Tony was manipulated. Any reasonable person who had no information from the comics would believe he created Ultron due to his own insecurities. And so the Avengers created Ultron.

2.) Scarlet Witch, while also created by the mind stone, has been a force for good and not nearly as powerful as Ultron was. As a Comic Book reader you may realize that one day she MIGHT be stronger, but going from just what happened in world? No. So an Evil nazi organization creates 2 good people, while the Avengers create a much more powerful evil super AI?

3.) As a movie watcher, if I didn't know Crossbones? I would have guessed those were simply terrorists stealing a biological agent. The head terrorist had some tech which let him punch really hard. Whatever else you're extrapolating is based off of a lot of intimate knowledge and some comic book knowledge, even with no media manipulation or signal loss, it's easy to understand why the even the Secretary of State described the Avengers as a U.S. private paramilitary organization that enters foreign borders (And fights terrorists).

To argue against any of these points, you need to use information no one within the movie would have outside of direct participants (And even then, it's obvious some agree with the above)...Or a lot of supposition. Any reasonable person should absolutely be leery of what the Avengers represent. Even if you think they are a force for good, they obviously have A LOT of power and use it where they see fit. We don't let any other institution do that without a ton of checks against them.

Column_sl said:

Crossbones has always been Hydra... He's specifically stealing a Super Serum to continue that research.

That isn't what a terror network does...

Shield is still in existence, just underground. Cap gets his intel from Shield.

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Again, YOU know this because you are an omniscience viewer. You go deep into the bowels of these organizations and see how its all made. I'm sure the CIA has a lot of good reasons for dropping JDAMs on family weddings to kill terrorists too, it does not mean people don't call for that organization to be put into check. What we KNOW, is that the Avengers have done some scary shit. They are powerful enough to easily kill millions, and there is no authority over them. Even the President of the United States has more checks on his power than the Avengers do and he's democratically elected by the consensus of usually, at least, 10's of millions. Who elected Tony?

Does anyone really believe it is unreasonable for people in that universe to think the Avengers need a check system? I mean, really?

Vvoid_sl said:

Yeah, Tony's whole reason for picking that side in the movie was about guilt, which was one of the things I disliked about the movie (there weren't many) because it was so dumb. Cap even says all the Accords do is shift the blame. Is Tony suddenly not going to give a shit that he kills a promising young black kid if the UN told him to do it?

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This is like saying Congressional oversight on drone kills just shifts the blame, lol. No, it creates a body that gives everyone a say (Theoretically) in how tremendous power is used. The democratization of power (And the democratization over the monopoly of violence) is one of the biggest aspects of modernity and the Enlightenment. The opposing force to this is, of course, how large bodies are prone to corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency (Hence the liberal aspect of the Enlightenment). These are both sides of an argument that are very viable. (And in fact, if you believe in the democracy=less war theory, then Vision's reasoning is very very apt)

This is something Western civilization struggles with, freedom/individuality vs security/democratic processes. No side here was silly, Iron Man was right, Captain was right--it's just one of those human problems that REALLY comes down to context and nuance, neither side in this kind of argument can be absolute, or always right. It really depends. Tony may have been swayed by guilt, but he was swayed to a very reaosnable and logical outcome. (Even if it is one I do personally disagree with...but hell, you have the entire EU swearing off guns and 30% of the U.S., and many Asian countries--so obviously it isn't an odd or strange opinion to have to believe power should be an public institutional only thing.)

Column_sl said:

Cap had no evidence that anything Bucky said was true. He just believed in him.

What exactly was he supposed to turn over that the US government couldn't have gotten themselves while the Winter Soldier was in custody?



Why would Cap tell that to Tony? He doesn't even trust him.


They had already chosen sides at that point. Tony is no longer in the picture. What would Tony do for them exactly anyway?

They are wanted fugitives at this point that have broken out a Government instillation. Only Sharon Carter is protecting them, and she is well aware of everything. A person that works for the Government unlike Tony.

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I feel like you just argued my point for me.
Cap's secrets and refusal to work with the team was downright criminal. Aided and abetted a "known" terrorist. made no attempt to clear his name even. you could argue bringing in Bucky safely as Cap being Cap. that did violate the mandates of government, but was also him trying to resolve things peacefully. Everything after that, was Cap being retarded, and a terrorist himself. Airport? terrorist.

why would the rest of the Avengers, the world, the governments, etc all NOT try to kill/capture Bucky, when Cap refused to even try to talk it out or justify his actions, despite his friends pleading with him repeatedly to come in peacefully? what other possible action is there for them?


There are no "sides" in this.
The accords had nothing to do with Bucky. That was only sortof relevant to wanda.

1.) There is precious little evidence Tony was manipulated. Any reasonable person who had no information from the comics would believe he created Ultron due to his own insecurities. And so the Avengers created Ultron

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We see him manipulated when he picks up Loki's staff at the start of the film....

2.) Scarlet Witch, while also created by the mind stone, has been a force for good and not nearly as powerful as Ultron was. As a Comic Book reader you may realize that one day she MIGHT be stronger, but going from just what happened in world? No. So an Evil nazi organization creates 2 good people, while the Avengers create a much more powerful evil super AI?

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Over half of the film Scarlet Witch is playing for the bad guys. It's only when she sees that Ultron is going to wipe everything out that she turns sides. We still don't know her full motivation even now.

Wrong the Avengers created one powerful AI, and one Super Powerful AI with the mind gem. Which is who Ultron fell too, and yet Vision still lives. Hmmm

3.) As a movie watcher, if I didn't know Crossbones? I would have guessed those were simply terrorists stealing a biological agent. The head terrorist had some tech which let him punch really hard. Whatever else you're extrapolating is based off of a lot of intimate knowledge and some comic book knowledge, even with no media manipulation or signal loss, it's easy to understand why the even the Secretary of State described the Avengers as a U.S. private paramilitary organization that enters foreign borders (And fights terrorists).

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Once it was revealed to the audience who Crossbones was the audience already knows hes hydra from the Winter Soldier Movie, and that Super Serum vial has been shown more then once in the Movies, and both TV shows.

To argue against any of these points, you need to use information no one within the movie would have...Or a lot of supposition. Any reasonable person should absolutely be leery of what the Avengers represent. Even if you think they are a force for good, they obviously have A LOT of power and use it where they see fit. We don't let any other institution do that without a ton of checks against them.

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If this existed in real life you should be afraid. Once that first Evolved Human is on the earth you my friend are obsolete, and we all know what mother nature does to the obsolete.

Again, YOU know this because you are an omniscience viewer. You go deep into the bowels of these organizations and see how its all made. I'm sure the CIA has a lot of good reasons for dropping JDAMs on family weddings to kill terrorists too, it does not mean people don't call for that organization to be put into check. What we KNOW, is that the Avengers have done some scary shit. They are powerful enough to easily kill millions, and there is no authority over them. Even the President of the United States has more checks on his power than the Avengers do.

Does anyone really believe it is unreasonable for people in that universe to think the Avengers need a check system? I mean, really?

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In both TV shows, and Movies we have never seen any Avenger, or Shield go against any terror organizations that weren't Hydra. That info is out there..

Anything else the Avengers have stopped have been Gods, and Monsters.

Realize I'm a bit late here, but Ultron was not the fault of the Avengers, it was the fault of Tony Stark. Maybe you could tar Banner with that brush too since he was involved, but a pretty strong argument could be made for charging Stark with crimes against humanity for creating Ultron. I can totally see governments wanting some form of control over the Avengers, but at the same time it's sorta weird that nobody wants to hold Stark personally accountable for the thousands of deaths caused by his negligence.

Caliane_sl said:

I feel like you just argued my point for me.
Cap's secrets and refusal to work with the team was downright criminal. Aided and abetted a "known" terrorist. made no attempt to clear his name even. you could argue bringing in Bucky safely as Cap being Cap. that did violate the mandates of government, but was also him trying to resolve things peacefully. Everything after that, was Cap being retarded, and a terrorist himself. Airport? terrorist.

There are no "sides" in this.
The accords had nothing to do with Bucky. That was only sortof relevant to wanda.

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What team? The Avengers are done at the conference room at the start of the film when they sided against each other.

Cap was a criminal( in the united nations eyes) when he was told to retire ,and he clearly did not.

Sharon Carter was the one that told him not to budge when they tell you to move at the Funeral.

Brad2770_sl said:

Out of all the questionable things I have seen in the Marvel movies since IM1, I think the thing that bothers me the most is that Tony took a blast from a TANK in the Mark I suit, plummeted to the ground at a pretty accelerated speed and got back up. No problems.

But now, Rhody gets shot, loses power and just falls to the earth and breaks his back. Maybe since the power was out, dampeners were down and that's why he took the full impact of the fall. But what about Capt. America sinking his shield into the chest of whatever Mark this suit is now.

I just wish their power range remained constant. Especially the mechanical/robotic technology.

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I was saying this to my wife the other day. Starting in IM3, he started getting weak. A truck hit him and his armor fell off. This is a guy who went toe to toe with Hulk and Thor and lived. In Cap 3, Cap actually beat him. I love Cap, but in the comic, Cap was unable to scratch Iron Man's armor, until someone gave him an EMP device tailored to neutralize Tony's armor. In the movie, Cap owned Tony in the final fight. So they've moved Tony down in power, and every movie since Cap 1, they've made him more and more powerful.