Captain America: Civil War (2016)

Blackyce_sl said:

Whatever, it's pointless to argue because it's not going to change yours or anyone else's mind as well as mine.

Suffice it to say, I didn't like Spider-Man in this movie, there were to many WTF moments for me in it.

1) Stark knowing Peter was Spider-Man.
2) Aunt May being a hot MILF.
3) Spider-Man's lack of using his abilities correctly is do to his lack of experience.
4) Spider-Man is an awe struck goofy teenager behind the mask, the same as Peter Parker in real life. In the Comics Spider-Man is much more sarcastic and in your face.
5) Spider-Man takes a bit of a beating and gives up after Stark tells him to stand down.

I'm just saying it didn't feel like Spider-Man to me. That's my take.

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1. Irrelevant, a billionaire superhero with unlimited resources financing a team of superheroes might just keep tabs on superhero sightings, especially in the same city.

2. You're lucky she isn't a Nigerian transexual who identifies as the Green Goblin.

3. Although he's Spider-Man he's also a teenage nerd in his first ever superhero backyard brawl, he was fighting other heroes, not villains. Nobody was using deadly force.

4. He's still a teenager and brand new to the group, he spends the majority of the fight marking out over how cool everything is, again, this wasn't a life or death battle, what was really on the line? Ant-Man behaves in almost the exact same manner.

5. See above.

radditsu_sl said:

Ehh, he was a werewolf at one point, Cap will get better.

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That was the 2nd best Cap only to the Planet Hulk version from Secret Wars. I don't actually like him normally, though, so I'm sure I'm biased.

This is a thing:

News about #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend on Twitter

I thought Spider-man was great the way he fought, but I do agree he tends to be more a sarcastic quippy dick as Spider-man. In this movie he was just an awe-struck kid, but I think it's fine given he's supposed to be a complete novice. I mean he was wearing fucking swimming goggles before Tony got him a new suit. So as long as in later movies he's more confidant and cocky as Spider-man and less "oh jee golly cool beans!" I think it'll be better.

Djay_sl said:

That was the 2nd best Cap only to the Planet Hulk version from Secret Wars. I don't actually like him normally, though, so I'm sure I'm biased.

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I like the modern cartoon one that is always around Ultimate Spiderman. I liked Bucky Cap. Heck I liked Civil War Cap (the comic). The last few years has been a very weird time to be Captain America though.

Muurloen_sl said:

This is a thing:

News about #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend on Twitter

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You'd think that non-hetero folks would congregate around actual gay characters, or create their own, instead of trying to retcon sexuality in existing ones. Just as silly as Samus Aran from Metroid being a tranny.

I know they have recently gayed Iceman, have they gayed up human torch yet? Beast will be a furry by next year.

Muurloen_sl said:

This is a thing:

News about #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend on Twitter

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I don't have anything against a gay or bisexual Cap if that's how they originally wanted to go with it.

But if you spend five movies never alluding to it, and in fact expressing his heterosexuality as being important due to his relationships with Peggy Carter and Agent 13, then I do have a problem with it, since it's bad storytelling. If they wanted to make him gay they should've been lobbying back before Avengers 1 came out.

The Spider-Man argument is retarded. His powers were only inconsistent in this movie if you are referencing his collection of stats from the wiki, which is pointless as that hasn't been accurate for a single one of the MCU characters so far. In the movie world, it's 100% consistent. He's a beginner, toned-down version of the comic book Spider-Man, just like every MCU character has been a toned down version of their comic counterpart and has started off weaker. You can reference the history of hundreds of comics all you want but that's only their inspiration, it's not the rulebook. Using the comics as hard coded facts is as impossible as taking everything in the bible literally, every few pages something contradicts something before it.

valishar_sl said:

I don't have anything against a gay or bisexual Cap if that's how they originally wanted to go with it.

But if you spend five movies never alluding to it, and in fact expressing his heterosexuality as being important due to his relationships with Peggy Carter and Agent 13, then I do have a problem with it, since it's bad storytelling. If they wanted to make him gay they should've been lobbying back before Avengers 1 came out.

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It just seems really contradicting to me. In Avengers 1 he really demonstrates a conservative, Christian persona (or at least nods to it)... "There's only one God ma'am..." He also appears to have tight morals throughout both movies correcting "language" and even being referred to as a "righteous man", so I have to agree it would seem like very bad storytelling at this point.

Also, his character appears to have been in love with Agent Carter and now Agent 13 as you referenced. I think they need to push for a new character but I think it's a bad public and media move on their behalf pushing this as it will just further the intolerance they're shown.

It's really not the end of the world either way.

I finally had a chance to see the movie. Didn't love it, to be honest. It was well made like most of Marvel's recent movies - I just couldn't shake the flippant actions of the characters. The writing wasn't nearly as solid as the top Marvel movies.

Some parts made sense in how they reacted - in fact it was mostly OK for the minor bits. Some of it was just odd, though. There really needed to be a better motivation for the whole plot point rather than "remember that time you killed people, yea you fucked up" "OK yea but... well... but I'm Captain America and... fuck the government!" There was too much sympathy for Stark's side I think.

All they needed was something like a CIA guy and a general going "You guys better not go into Lagos before us or you'll be faggots!" and then they're like "Oh shit he isn't going to catch them dudes!" and then right after the explosion a bunch of helicopters and special ops show up and the general is like "You idiots it was a trap and you killed people because you're giant faggots!" and then Stark is like 'fuck you guys' and then cap is like nuh uh they would not have gotten there in time and they slap fight or wahtever.

Primary motivations seemed to be weak and misplaced. Then there's the bad guy who it kind of made some sense I guess until the end where the video was just I dunno, unimpressive after all that. I can sort of understand the Stark being a hothead thing but why not just mail him the tape?

I wanted to like it more than I did. I'd say it's better than Thor 1/2, Cap 1, etc. but just doesn't stand in the top 5 for me.

It assumed that the viewer has seen Winter Soldier and both of the Avengers movies and understands the evolution that Cap (and Tony for that matter) have undergone through those storylines. Cap no longer trusts centralized authority. We've seen him coming to terms with that loss of faith before Civil War. The same can't be said for Tony and his guilt over the collateral damage he's played a part in so that had to be fleshed out more in context.

Yea, I thought Tony was pretty much flawless on motivations (maybe not the my parents who died decades ago were killed by your mind wipe so raaage murder but I digress). Cap I don't get. IF they had all signed begrudgingly then it was just a bunch of worthless shit bureaucrats then I could understand. They start telling Cap he can't save people and then he's like "no, fuck this and fuck you" then I could understand it.

I mean the entire thing was like "LITERALLY EVERY COUNTRY wants you to only come if they say so." and he's like "no, fuck off". I dunno, just how Cap came off to me.

Palum_sl said:

Yea, I thought Tony was pretty much flawless on motivations (maybe not the my parents who died decades ago were killed by your mind wipe so raaage murder but I digress). Cap I don't get. IF they had all signed begrudgingly then it was just a bunch of worthless shit bureaucrats then I could understand. They start telling Cap he can't save people and then he's like "no, fuck this and fuck you" then I could understand it.

I mean the entire thing was like "LITERALLY EVERY COUNTRY wants you to only come if they say so." and he's like "no, fuck off". I dunno, just how Cap came off to me.

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Yeah, Caps motivations were understandable...Butthey required the audience to really fill in the blanks on how awful bureaucratic/political nonsense are (Or be "told" how awful they are, like with Tony talking about Scarlet Witch). Classic show not tell...

Movie would have benefited a great deal, in my opinion, by having Scarlet Witch wanting to leave the compound for some reason, and having the accords committee pull some shit and make it a real dramatic scene showing him how these assholes will be using them as political hockey pucks. Something to make the accords more personal than "Scarlet Witch, whose technically a war refugee who was working for a terrorist organization, is going to have to say in my lavish mansion for a little bit...."

I thought the writers were poking at the US government during that first speech. When the guy is like "Avengers ignore countries sovereignty, do their thing and just leave" or something close to that. I was hoping for one of the characters to have some quip about it, but was let down.

Seananigans_sl said:

You guys really don't think Cap's motivations are covered by Cap 2's storyline, and HYDRA in general? His trust in government and/or agencies had been completely trashed. And in the meeting with Ross, he simply says (paraphrasing) "We were set up to make the world safer, and I personally think we've done that." He foresaw this leash as interfering with, and possibly even outright intentionally fucking up their mission statement. Still though, he even was close to signing after he/Sam/Bucky were arrested, until Tony held back the tidbit about Wanda, then just says "goddammit, typical Tony" and walks out (which just helps strengthen possible future conflict with Tony).

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Yea, but I mean the problem is that Stark wasn't the one who was wrong in the practical sense. They were trashing the shit out of everything every time they fought and, right or wrong, causing massive collateral damage. Like I said, I 'get it' I just thought Cap's angle was very weak and yet he's the titular character. I would have been OK if Tony had been the slightly crazy one - IE was going apeshit over property damage and Cap is all about saving the lives at any cost or something.

I think both Age of Ultron and The Winter Soldier did a good job establishing the groundwork for the conflict between Rogers and Stark. It all comes down to trust:

Stark was more or less the first (modern) superhero. He created the mold and - due to his fortune and arrogance - has been operating largely on his own terms. He obviously has good intentions but him constantly going off half-cocked and not thinking things through has led those good intentions to often come with some significant consequences. Ultron is only the latest example of this, something he was attempting to create so he could give up Iron Man for Pepper but instead created even more need for him (causing him to lose Pepper in the process). This has obviously led him to harbor a lot of guilt, but more importantly, it's caused him to lose a lot of trust in himself, so it makes sense that he'd jump at the possibility of ceding some responsibility and control to someone else.

Rogers, on the other hand, has been pushed in the opposite direction. He grew up during an extremely patriotic time and was unfailingly loyal to his government. He was a good soldier and saw it as his job to follow orders. Then the events of the Winter Soldier happen and he begins to realize the enemy isn't always as obvious as a crazed dictator or alien invasion. The government he trusted implicitly has been infiltrated by the very enemy he thought he defeated and operated subtly within for decades. Meanwhile, on the other side, Fury and Project Insight show him that even people with noble goals can take things too far. Everything he thought he knew is put into question. Hell, the movie practically hits you over the head with this theme by having Rogers' antagonist literally wear the face of his best and most trustworthy friend. His world has been shaken to its foundation and he's lost all trust in it, so the last thing he wants to do is sign up to have someone else start to be able to tell him what to do.