Captain America: Civil War (2016)

Gamma Rays

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I got distracted by something with the Black Panther.

What I mean, from his first appearance, it just popped into my head that he looked like that Simpson's episode when Skinner cosplays as Catwoman.

Could not take the character seriously after that, I could not un-see it.

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"You look like a Malaysian transsexual"
 

Royal

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I'd throw in a minor disagreement re: Tony, in just that the latest movie with Tony was AoU, in which he showed multiple guilt issues throughout. He was clearly battling with internal stuff.
Tony wasn't wrestling with guilt over what went wrong with his actions in AoU or all of the damage that resulted from them. He was afraid that his teammates and friends would end up dying doing what they had been brought together to do and that in the end he would have failed to do enough to keep it from happening. Even after things went sideways with Ultron he continuously defended what he had done with his motivation for having done so. He even tried it again which lead to Vision being created.

There wasn't enough time in the movie after Sokovia to show him coming to terms with all of the collateral damage that was a direct result of his decisions and actions. It wasn't the same as the Chitauri invasion from the first Avengers. There was a lot of damage from that as well but it was from a completely external threat.
 

Seananigans

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Tony wasn't wrestling with guilt over what went wrong with his actions in AoU or all of the damage that resulted from them. He was afraid that his teammates and friends would end up dying doing what they had been brought together to do and that in the end he would have failed to do enough to keep it from happening. Even after things went sideways with Ultron he continuously defended what he had done with his motivation for having done so. He even tried it again which lead to Vision being created.

There wasn't enough time in the movie after Sokovia to show him coming to terms with all of the collateral damage that was a direct result of his decisions and actions. It wasn't the same as the Chitauri invasion from the first Avengers. There was a lot of damage from that as well but it was from a completely external threat.
Your entire first paragraph agrees with my statement though:

...multiple guilt issues throughout.
One of those multiple is his vision from Wanda making him feel guilty for not doing enough. Then he goes a bit overboard, and has extra guilt about what that caused. Hence the underlying internal battle he's fighting with himself and his emotions, which you reference in him defending his choices re: Ultron creation.

I'll agree there wasn't really much/any screen time devoted to Sokovia aftermath, but that's part of what makes the MCU movies flow so well. They lay a foundation for people to add in reasonable filler pieces.
 

Royal

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Your entire first paragraph agrees with my statement though:



One of those multiple is his vision from Wanda making him feel guilty for not doing enough. Then he goes a bit overboard, and has extra guilt about what that caused. Hence the underlying internal battle he's fighting with himself and his emotions, which you reference in him defending his choices re: Ultron creation.

I'll agree there wasn't really much/any screen time devoted to Sokovia aftermath, but that's part of what makes the MCU movies flow so well. They lay a foundation for people to add in reasonable filler pieces.
I wasn't implying that he didn't feel any guilt about anything at all, simply no guilt surrounding those who came out on the loosing end of the havoc that Ultron wrought. He never displayed that in AoU and he aggressively defended in actions multiple times during the movie. They even spent time showing him regretting the effect being an Avenger and his obsession with creating "a suit of armor around the world" had on his relationship with Pepper but not guilt over the loss of innocent lives that were a direct result of his arrogance. It was like he had forgotten the very thing that had caused him to want to get out of the arms business in the original IM.

Can we reasonably assume that he felt bad about it? Of course, but they just never showed it having a significant impact on him emotionally, which justified them setting that up in Civil War (my original point in all of this).
 

Seananigans

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I wasn't implying that he didn't feel any guilt about anything at all, simply no guilt surrounding those who came out on the loosing end of the havoc that Ultron wrought. He never displayed that in AoU and he aggressively defended in actions multiple times during the movie. They even spent time showing him regretting the effect being an Avenger and his obsession with creating "a suit of armor around the world" had on his relationship with Pepper but not guilt over the loss of innocent lives that were a direct result of his arrogance. It was like he had forgotten the very thing that had caused him to want to get out of the arms business in the original IM.

Can we reasonably assume that he felt bad about it? Of course, but they just never showed it having a significant impact on him emotionally, which justified them setting that up in Civil War (my original point in all of this).
So ultimately you're just dissatisfied with the MIT elevator scene as being enough pre-accords on-screen setup?
 

Royal

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So ultimately you're just dissatisfied with the MIT elevator scene as being enough pre-accords on-screen setup?
/sigh jesus christ .... no.

If you go back to where this started I was responding to someone saying that Cap's motivations weren't as well established within the movie itself as Tony's and explaining why they devoted more time to that.
 

Taloo_sl

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The fuck is you peoples problem? Is you bitches retarded?

Tony wanted to be absolved of the guilt by making someone else responsible for their actions.

Captain thinks maybe putting a bunch of shitheads who are too busy waving their dicks at each other to pass a budget funding their government/hires Hydra agents to run their super secret protect the world organization(pick one either works or insert your own government bullshit of choice) shouldn't be in charge of deciding if the avengers can respond to a threat or not in a timely manner.

Tony's motivation couldn't have been spelled out more fucking clearly, there's a bit more to it but that was the main reasoning. Absolve himself of responsibility and he absolves himself of guilt. Captains point of view doesn't need to be spelled out. Who the fuck would want the assholes we've elected deciding when and where the Avengers can intervene? Because they damn sure couldn't do it. "The Avengers let my adorable 2 year old die stopping x villain from doing y thing, thanks Obama."
 

Lithose

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You guys really don't think Cap's motivations are covered by Cap 2's storyline, and HYDRA in general? His trust in government and/or agencies had been completely trashed. And in the meeting with Ross, he simply says (paraphrasing) "We were set up to make the world safer, and I personally think we've done that." He foresaw this leash as interfering with, and possibly even outright intentionally fucking up their mission statement. Still though, he even was close to signing after he/Sam/Bucky were arrested, until Tony held back the tidbit about Wanda, then just says "goddammit, typical Tony" and walks out (which just helps strengthen possible future conflict with Tony).
I think Caps motivations were understandable--I think the movie itself would have be helped though by a little more connective tissue to the source of his concerns. In the movie, you essentially had Cap starting to talk to Tony and possibly signing, then Wanda being held on base was what made him freak out...That scene felt very flat, Tony's reaction felt unreasonable--she worked with a known terrorist organization, the same one that brought down SHIELD, and she's not a U.S. citizen. People died in a foreign operation she was on, it's pretty reasonable she stays in the compound until things settle down.

In any case, I was watching Winter Soldier against last night..And the scene came up where Nick Fury talks about potentially salvaging some of the Carriers--and Steve says no way, the price for them risking everyone and Hydra growing under the organizations nose was it all goes, it all ends. This is the one problem I have with Caps logic--if ignorance towards an internal threat is justification enough to absolve an organization? Then why the hell is he pushing for the Avengers to remain after Ultron? Ultron grew right under his nose, after all. Yeah, Tony didn't tell him, but that's because the Avengers are compartmentalized; exactly the reason he said Shield had to go.

So his ideological reason for not agreeing to have the Avengers change? Felt a bit weak during the mid film crisis, understandable, but a little weak--I think some specific catalyzing event connecting to WS, like Tony's guilt trip scene, but for Cap? Would have been better. (By the end of the film I actually felt that Cap's motivations were fine, though--because the organization trying to control him had allowed Bucky to be tampered with, illustrating the same weakness shield fell too. But the mid movie choice felt pretty week, especially how he didn't trust Tony with his hunch.)

But overall, that's a small gripe, as said, anyone can easily fill in the blanks based on, as you said, Winter Soldier.
 

Drakain

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In AoU, Cap is trying to be a team mate and friend to Tony. It's why he gets so pissed when he finds out Tony is responsible. Tony and The Avengers are not SHIELD so Cap feels he has more control. When he finds out he doesn't it almost comes to blows, but he knows he has to be the bigger man and leader to help solve the problem at hand. At the end of AoU Tony is leaving the Avengers in Cap's hands so problem sloved... until Lagos...
 

Palum

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Yea, I get the whole build up. The film isn't really fatally flawed by it. I just thought it was handled kind of oddly because the script did it's best to make the titular character seem completely unreasonable from an isolated viewing. Granted, I feel that was in an effort to not make Stark a 'bad guy' per se and that's OK - it's just the pendulum was pretty far in that direction. There wasn't much sympathy from me for Cap (et all) basically letting people die in Lagos and then emo rage quitting and then hospitalizing/killing GSG9 members to save his 'old friend' who had murdered tons of people but he was mysteriously still OK with? I dunno it was just too much all at once, I didn't like Cap's decisions at all in this one.

Overall was decent, I'd just say it was middle of the pack for Marvel at this point though. Which isn't a bad thing but I'm starting to sense fatigue with the whole thing. It seemed too mundane and 'unspecial' at this point - the superheroes are just like at Wendy's drivethrough sometimes and you see them at the golf course occasionally. I get it's probably me - but I look at GotG and think that still had the 'supernatural' punch to it that these films are starting to lack. I hope the Thanos thing really picks back up the 'oh shit' level of super-ness.

Probably a disservice to the story in general that they had to tell it as a Cap film instead of just 'Avengers' or whatever because really, you can't do too much with a dude who has a strong right hook and a shield without making it not about him any more I guess.
 

Void

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I just want to go on record as stating that I don't have a goddamn bit of "superhero fatigue" and I will gladly watch GOOD superhero movies (which this was for me at least) until the day I die. Just like I will watch good horror movies, or sci-fi movies, or war movies, or heist movies, or frat boys wanting to fuck anything that moves movies. There is no reason not to keep watching, and wanting, good movies. It is when they start throwing out shitty money grabs, again of any genre, that I don't want them. It has nothing to do with the subject matter.
 

Armadon

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Just saw this today and was just kinda like meh. I felt like a lot of the super heroes didn't need to be in the movie. The real struggle is between Captain America and Iron Man and I felt like something was missing because they added so many people into the mix. I don't read comics so maybe I'm missing something.
 

j00t

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As far as cap's motivation, I think the overall arc that he's had was fine and internally consistent. "The safest hands are still our own" sums up his viewpoint pretty succinctly
 

Palum

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I just want to go on record as stating that I don't have a goddamn bit of "superhero fatigue" and I will gladly watch GOOD superhero movies (which this was for me at least) until the day I die. Just like I will watch good horror movies, or sci-fi movies, or war movies, or heist movies, or frat boys wanting to fuck anything that moves movies. There is no reason not to keep watching, and wanting, good movies. It is when they start throwing out shitty money grabs, again of any genre, that I don't want them. It has nothing to do with the subject matter.
Yea it's not a 'bad' movie but there wasn't much exciting or new in it. Like Avengers 1 = alien invasion, Avengers 2 = unkillable AI robot mastermind, Cap 1 = red skull/hydra (ok not great but still), Cap 2 = winter soldier + shield conspiracy shit, Cap 3 = ... OK its some dude who threatens to use super soldiers... nope just a video tape and now they're fighting.

I dunno, one could skip this and not really lose much other than wondering why Ironman has to use an antique flip-phone to call Cap in Avengers 3.
 

Armadon

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As far as cap's motivation, I think the overall arc that he's had was fine and internally consistent. "The safest hands are still our own" sums up his viewpoint pretty succinctly
Yeah I agree with that. I also think Stark wanted government control to control Stark. If he has someone watching over his back then he won't create another Ultron incident. Really he's the only Avenger to abuse power and that's even if you want to call it that.
 

j00t

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Someone said it earlier and nailed it on the head. Stark is an narcissistic egomaniac. He can't stop being ironman no matter what. He convinces himself the world needs him, but he absolutely cannot handle the weight of that. Again, because he thinks he's more important than he is, he thinks his consequences are bigger as well. After 10 years of doing this it's taken just too much of an emotional toll on him. He knows he can't stop himself, but maybe if someone else is in charge he can just say he's following orders and be absolved of guilt.