Captain America: Civil War (2016)

You really can't kill Hydra tho, that's pretty much the organization's moto.

When they stop saying Hail Hydra in the Movies is when the writers are done with them.

SHIELD is definitely in a weird situation tho.

You have Coulson's SHIELD that works with guidance from Fury, and Fury is still running around with a Helicarrier worth of SHIELD.

Column_sl said:

Uhhh what.. I have to think you don't even watch these films. Hydra infiltrated Shield that had massive checks ,and balances. A whole independent world council oversaw them, and even they were infected at its highest level.

Hydra is everywhere even the Senator that was making legislation on super powered individuals was Hydra.

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You mean the world council that ordered Fury to keep the tesseract, then he flat refused? The world council that wanted to know where the Avengers were in order to monitor them and he told them to fuck off and specifically cut them out of the loop and did the opposite?

Yep, some very effective 'checks'. I think you need to re-watch these films, because the whole point of the end of Avengers was to illustrate how the organization had finally been made vulnerable enough for Hydra to move on it. Did you ever question how a plan that was meant to eliminate threats pro-actively wasn't even discussed outside of Shield (Or even WITHIN shield, it was literally even kept from their top agents). The "world government' which 'checked' shield was invited to speak to the director at the end of Winter Soldier, remember? Did they look happy? Did they seem like they were kept in the loop about ANY of this nonsense? The council was not infected, it simply was ignored.

Seriously, did you miss all this? This was like the point of movie, man.

Cybsled_sl said:

Now Hydra is pretty much dead. Even on Agents of SHIELD, they have been all but wiped out (thanks to Hive).

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Considering that Shield is and has always been an arm of HYDRA (but never knew it), what are you on about?

Lithose_sl said:

You mean the world council that ordered Fury to keep the tesseract, then he flat refused? The world council that wanted to know where the Avengers were in order to monitor them and he told them to fuck off and specifically cut them out of the loop and did the opposite?

Yep, some very effective 'checks'. I think you need to re-watch these films, because the whole point of the end of Avengers was to illustrate how the organization had finally been made vulnerable enough for Hydra to move on it. Did you ever question how a plan that was meant to eliminate threats pro-actively wasn't even discussed outside of Shield (Or even WITHIN shield, it was literally even kept from their top agents). The "world government' which 'checked' shield was invited to speak to the director at the end of Winter Soldier, remember? Did they look happy? Did they seem like they were kept in the loop about ANY of this nonsense?

Seriously, did you miss all this? This was like the point of movie, man.

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Hydra has always been in Shield even when it wasn't shield. Did you watch Agent Carter? Did you watch Agents of Shield?

Holy shit man, you are just going in Circles, and shifting goal posts like crazy because you know you have no argument anymore.

You claim that Hydra only goes for clandestine organizations with no oversight, and I showed you that Hydra is in every organization including the Senator that was going after Stark...

Fury wasn't even in control of Shield. His Director was Hydra himself. Who fucked up on that in the World Council? .... So much for Oversight

You just proved to everyone that no matter what you do, oversight, or not bad shits going to happen.

Shift the goal posts away my friend I assume we will eventually hit Thanos at one point LMAO.

Maybe you can tell us again How Shield birthed Hydra when it wasn't even started at the time ROFL, or how Hydra didn't have access to world ending items like the tesseract..

Cap 3 has now topped Deadpool, and is pennies away from topping GotG.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmen.../#19d5c99738fa

Lyrical_sl said:

Considering that Shield is and has always been an arm of HYDRA (but never knew it), what are you on about?

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He's talking about Hive effectively killing all the heads of Hydra, but that organization is built on surviving.

Column_sl said:

Hydra has always been in Shield even when it wasn't shield. Did you watch Agent Carter? Did you watch Agents of Shield?

holy shit man, you are just going in Circles, and shifting goal posts like crazy because you know you have no argument anymore.

You claim that Hydra only goes for clandestine orginzations with no oversight, and I showed you that Hydra is in every organization including the Senator that was going after Stark...

Fury wasn't even in control of Shield. His Director was Hydra himself. Who fucked up on that in the World Council that was supposed to give them oversight.

You just proved to everyone that no matter what you do, oversight, or not bad shits going to happen.

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No,I said Hydra chose to bring their plan for world domination out within an organization with no oversight. They infected other governments, but they were only able to actualize a plan to DOMINATE THE EARTH within SHIELD and Germany. (I suspect at this point you're trolling, I'll do a pint by numbers a humor you one last time--Lets go over it in simple steps.)

1.) You say many organizations have been infiltrated by hydra--we agree here.

2.) Within all these organizations, Hydra exists but never comes close to being able to bring to fruition a plan that could end the world and/or allow them complete dominance.(We seem to agree here; you do admit Hydra got into a lot of governments and organizations, many of which have access to nuclear weapons, power arsenals, advanced technology--hmm, odd how they never tried to take over the earth before...Maybe because having agents in somewhere is vastly different than CONTROLLING something? I don't know. Maybe that's it.).

3.) I point out that Hydra does actually succeed in implementing a plan to take over the world within SHIELD and Nazi Germany. I then point out, part of the reason they could succeed in these places is lack of shared power, which makes them prone to manipulation. In other words, it's a lot fucking harder to end the world as US senator, even the President (Both which have to be elected AND which have institutions that check their power), thana handful of unelected agents within Shield.

Number 3 is the point.THAT is the point, do you understand? Hydra has been able to infiltrate everyone...but theyhaven't been able to use ANYONE ELSE to assert world domination EXCEPT 2 organizations. Nazi Germany and SHIELD. Think REALLY hard what these two things have in common. It's not being 'evil', it's simply a power structure without checks and balances, and thus can operatewithouttransparency.

You continue to try to make the argument about some really odd false equivalence, that Hydra being able to infect an organization and cause SOME corruption is the SAME as Hydra being able toTAKE OVERthat organization and use it to actualize a plan todominate the earth. You're comparing a corrupt senator with fucking floating sky bases that can assassinate thousands of people instantly, and reign domination down on the mankind. Are you serious right now?

And no, pointing out the world council was an ineffective body that was blind to shields action doesn't 'prove' oversight doesn't work--it proves that NO OVERSIGHT does not work, or largelysymbolicoversight does not work. Again, all the 'world leaders' were obviously not in the loop, and so impotent they couldn't even order Fury to do something SHIELD was founded to do (Monitor people)--so how the fuck can someone who doesn't know about something and was powerless to compel SHIELD to reveal it (As they clearly were) act as oversight? Theycan't.That's precisely what the accords intended to fix with the Avengers, implement a FUNCTIONAL oversight that actually had power.

No, I said Hydra chose to bring their plan for world domination out within an organization with no oversight. They infected other governments, but they were only able to actualize a plan to DOMINATE THE EARTH within SHIELD and Germany. Jesus you can't be this dense, you have to be trolling. Lets go over it in simple steps.

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You can't be serious. The Plan Hydra had in CAP 2 was the dumbest comic book shit ever. Omg, i'm done lol

They even had the Antagonist tellin you the plan right before Cap foils it, and the way they stopped it was ridiculous.

Almost as bad as Luke destroying the Death Star.

Hydra didn't even have to do any of that they had complete control of EVERYTHING... They pretty much slit their throats with that dumb ass plan.

Also what were they Thinking? Earth has Asgardians helping them. Thor alone would blow all that shit up in one day.

Also, again, another aspect of the hypocrisy behind Caps logic. When Shield was found to be manipulated by Hydra--and they built weapons of terrible power that threatened mankind. Cap effectively said the organization needed to be dissolved and that it was wrong (Vehemently disagreed with them). Now if you believe the Avengers were 'manipulated', then how are they different from SHIELD?

They are a powerful organization, operating without oversight. They were manipulated (Multiple times now), to endanger the world. But this time, Cap believes his organization should be able to continue on with their ultimate weapons, unchecked. Okay?

Column_sl said:

You can't be serious. The Plan Hydra had in CAP 2 was the dumbest comic book shit ever. Omg, i'm done lol

They even had the Antagonist tellin you the plan right before Cap foils it, and the way they stopped it was ridiculous.

Almost as bad Luke destroying the Death Star.

Hydra didn't even have to do any of that they had complete control of EVERYTHING... They pretty much slit their throats with that dumb ass plan.

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All you're saying here is the only reason Hydra didn't succeed using this unchecked, caldenstine organization to take over the world was shitty comic book writing with the villain monologuing like he was in the Increadibles. Okay, I agree. It doesn't do anything to argue against the point, Hydra was able to re-surge and potentially take over the world because they could manipulate an organizationwithoutchecks and balances. (They had infected many organizations WITH those things and were never able to reach near the same levels of power)

The above is completely true, even within the US senate Hydra could never hope to command the power it did by taking over SHIELD; part of the reason is because of how SHIELD was structured, without checks and balances and who had a lot of power/funding. Now, The Avengers are an organization without checks and balances, and have a lot of power/funding. They also, like SHIELD, had an element from within their organization go rogue and quite nearly destroy the world (And take over what was left). And theconsequences for this should be....Them promising everyone they feel very guilty but don't want to 'shift' it to someone else, kk thx bye, let us operate our super weapons and life ending powers in peace! Nothing to see here......

lol, if you're complaining about the idiotic comic book logic of Hydra not simply just taking over the world before taunting Captain America--then surely you must also realize it is silly comic book logic that paramilitary organizations which could potentially defeat major world powers, which 'accidentally almost destroyed the world with something even more dangerous than a nuke, would even be a thing that could operate with impunity. (Or would even be allowed to exist without immediate consequence, and potentially military force destroying it)

You proved yourself that the people doing the checking are corrupt.

The mistake the Avengers made was going public. Stark should have never told anyone he was Iron Man, and they shouldn't have operated outside in the public view.

Avengers tower? Yeah not a good idea

I mean who is going to stop these guys if they don't want to comply? No one, it's pretty obvious in Cap 3.

If Cap feels that it is his job to safeguard the world then he should just do it, and who cares what anyone else says. That's exactly what he is doing.


One last thing Cap never agreed with what Tony, and Banner did when creating the AI Ultron. In fact they hid it from him. If they would hide that from a friend, they would have just hid it from any overseeing party, and we come up with the same outcome.

Column_sl said:

You proved yourself that the people doing the checking are corrupt.

The mistake the Avengers made was going public. Stark should have never told anyone he was Iron Man, and they shouldn't have operated outside in the public view.

Avengers tower? Yeah not a good idea

I mean who is going to stop these guys if they don't want to comply? No one, it's pretty obvious in Cap 3.

If Cap feels that it is his job to safeguard the world then he should just do it, and who cares what anyone else says. That's exactly what he is doing.

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The people doing the checking refused to aid them even at gun point. The people doing the checking were just impotent and useless because they operated without transparency (Like an accord.)

The rest of your post I agree with. The fact is, an organization like the Avengers would naturally be at odds with sovereign nations--that's natural. It's even logical. Them operating kind of outside the law is really how it should be--them operating in an almost 'official' capacity without oversight, after Ultron and SHIELD (Giving them some public legitimacy)? Wasn't really believable. But that's why I liked the movie, this move to drive them underground felt pretty natural. Some of Caps actions, as Cal said, felt a bit obtuse, but overall, yeah, I agree with you--the way this would go down is how it actually went down, with them going underground.

In the end, it's a cliche in comics that superheroes struggle with the law for a reason. Because it's how it would almost have to be. In order to operate most effectively, without political agendas from the outside, you have to be outside the law and public endorsement. If you want the public endorsement and to be a 'public hero' or public asset? You get all the trappings and constraints of any public good, like the military or police.

Lithose_sl said:

Also, again, another aspect of the hypocrisy behind Caps logic. When Shield was found to be manipulated by Hydra--and they built weapons of terrible power that threatened mankind. Cap effectively said the organization needed to be dissolved and that it was wrong (Vehemently disagreed with them). Now if you believe the Avengers were 'manipulated', then how are they different from SHIELD?

They are a powerful organization, operating without oversight. They were manipulated (Multiple times now), to endanger the world. But this time, Cap believes his organization should be able to continue on with their ultimate weapons, unchecked. Okay?

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yeah, cap was doing exactly what Nick fury did in Cap2.

Speaking of Fury, I was disappointed that he wasn't in this film even in an Ultron limited capacity. I can't imagine he would have stayed out of this storyline.

Watching the half in the bag review now. they are pretty much saying what I did.

Caliane_sl said:

yeah, cap was doing exactly what Nick fury did in Cap2.

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Yeah, this was the only part of the movie that felt forced. When Cap summarily made the decision "He won't believe us, we're on our own". I get they didn't have evidence--and there was a small throw away line at the apart where Tony said 'your judgement is askew'. But they should have spent a few minutes building up the emotion around that part. Having Cap try to explain, and then Tony reject, in a situation where there was already about to be a fight and things had come to a head? Made the emotions behind both their choices flat and shallow.

I mean, would it really have been hard for Cap to to give the dude a call, and relay his info in a setting that really relied on the characters personalities causing the divide between them rather than the imminent threat of fighting/capture?

It would have been better if he had trusted Tony, and then went to meat Tony and Tony tried to 'bring him in' by force anyway. Because the general or someone freshly guilt tripped Tony by bringing up Ultron, and what would happen if Cap is wrong and Manchurian Candidate slips away. Tony forced to act because he feels like he can't be wrong about something again, after learning about all the people he's hurt.

Fuuuck I saw this in an AMC Prime location and it's beautiful resolution. I got dizzy (2D) from that first fight scene. I guess it took awhile for my eyes and brain to adjust. But damn when they were in Wakanda I had to look away a few times in between fight sequences.

I didnt think about it until now but Bucky is probably going to be in the Black panther movie a bunch. Cant wait

I liked it... but it was kinda disappointing after Winter Soldier (but then most everything has been).