Company Raises It's Minimum Wage to $70,000 and All Hell Breaks Loose

Vaclav

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Sure, and that might work for a company/industry like that, but most of the places that actually employ minimum wage workers are in very low margin industries and an increase to a $15 an hour minimum wage is not sustainable under that model. McDonald's might be able to whether those cost increases due to economies of scale but for your local mom and pops they wouldn't be able to just gut their own pay to accommodate. Pricing is an option but generally leads to a drop in traffic and again, more easily accomplished by large companies with high volumes.
For the businesses that do use minimum wage labor, last time I saw an article run about it, productivity was up around 300-400% per employee since 1985 or something like that, while their average wage had gone up something like 30%. (Might be somewhat off, it's off my head - that ballpark though for sure - date is the biggest one I'm unsure of - 90% sure on the others, 50% sure on the year)

It's a weak argument to say that their margin is too low to pay them much more, they're generating far more, yet only seeing a fraction of their increased productivity realized in their own pay.

Which isn't how most industries work, mind you.
 

stupidmonkey

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Having worked at Wally-World at the ripe old age of 16, this is nothing new. It was mentioned to me on a few separate occasions from the people who had worked there for a decade or more. What would end up happening, since we are talking minimum wage people, is that Wal-Mart would basically give you a raise of 2-3% for fair, 3-4% for good, 4-5% for excellent. No one really ever got excellent even if your numbers and results broke company record, so most people fell into the 2-3% or 3-4% category.

In 1985 when the store opened minimum wage was $3.35 and you essentially started out at that. 3% raise in 1986 = $3.45, 1987 = 3.55, 1988 = 3.66, 1989 = 3.77, 1990 = 3.88. Then in 1990 the minimum wage goes to $3.80. You worked for them for five years, possibly longer, and now the newest person starting out is making just as much as you because of wage shift from the government. This happened multiple times. Again nothing new here.

And yeah yeah, in before the walmart/taco bell/grocery chain isn't a career stop whining people.
 

Palum

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At some point it's time to realize minimum wage is not meant to be livable to support a family. If you want to have jobs for retirees, teenagers, etc, then it can't be because they are simply not worth it or can't do it, else they'd simply be in the work force.

So I don't really care as it doesn't really effect me but you can't have it both ways, you have to choose: are people less skilled or experienced than are worth a comfortable hourly wage simply unemployed or do you let people try and gain experience however they can.

I hire young adults out of food service and retail for some positions if they are trainable and want to learn and they are thrilled to be making several dollars more an hour. After several months to a year, if they are good and motivated they will be making way more than $15 either from commissions or promotion. Yet if I couldn't start them lower, it wouldn't be worth it to give them a shot. By time the economy adapted and wages rippled upwards, if at all, they'd long since be unemployed and working Uber and Postmates for pennies.

The minimum wage should increase, but not double. It's not meant to be livable and kids need jobs desperately for experience, especially this newest generation of socially awkwards.

Understand, companies will adapt with automation, 1099s, outsourcing and similar tactics because the consumer, including and especially minimum wage employees demands it. Those who need $15/hr minimum wage because they can't get a job that pays $15/hr are going to go from whatever they make now to unemployment.
 

Vaclav

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The minimum wage should increase, but not double. It's not meant to be livable and kids need jobs desperately for experience, especially this newest generation of socially awkwards.

Understand, companies will adapt with automation, 1099s, outsourcing and similar tactics because the consumer, including and especially minimum wage employees demands it. Those who need $15/hr minimum wage because they can't get a job that pays $15/hr are going to go from whatever they make now to unemployment.
Where are these $15/hr discussions coming from besides a locality thing (generally ridiculous expensive ones)?

$15/hr nationwide would be ridiculous, only the most uninformed would think otherwise - but it seems fitting for some exceptionally expensive localities. (NYC, LA, Boston come to mind)

I'd personally be happy as a clam to see something like a $10/hr minimum wage set with a mandate that cities have their own indexing to adjust it based on some median that $10/hr is considered balanced for. (With some means of evaluating the index every 5 years or whatever)

Heck maybe not even raise the Federal minimum, but force an index on higher cost areas. Because as we always hear in such discussions "minimum wage is livable in Bumfuck, Arkansas" or whatever. When the key is for it to be a barely livable wage, if the goal isn't for those folks to live high on the hog (quite possibly literally!) then maybe it's just indexing everywhere else against them or whatever.

Just gotta figure out the baseline for what's considered livable. [Personally for me, I'd consider "qualifying for welfare/food stamps" as a good litmus and that already indexes to a degree already - no one with a fulltime job, even minimum wage should require (or qualify for) food stamps barring extreme circumstances]
 

opiate82

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For the businesses that do use minimum wage labor, last time I saw an article run about it, productivity was up around 300-400% per employee since 1985 or something like that, while their average wage had gone up something like 30%. (Might be somewhat off, it's off my head - that ballpark though for sure - date is the biggest one I'm unsure of - 90% sure on the others, 50% sure on the year)

It's a weak argument to say that their margin is too low to pay them much more, they're generating far more, yet only seeing a fraction of their increased productivity realized in their own pay.

Which isn't how most industries work, mind you.
Even if your numbers are true, the point you are missing is that productivity isn't up as a result of minimum wage workers suddenly being better at their jobs. Productivity is up because businesses that employ minimum wage workers have been forced to cut staff, wages, and adopt means of automation to offset increasing labor costs. Also, for as long as we've been tracking worker productivity, wages have always naturally increased with a rise in productivity. If burger flippers have really gone from flipping 60 burgers per hour to 240 burgers per hour they will be compensated accordingly without having the government/voters forcing the wage on a business.

I'll give you an example of what I mean in my business. Here in WA in 1998 they passed an initiative that automatically raises the minimum wage with the CPI. This has resulted in WA having the highest (statewide) minimum wage in the country currently. Whenever the minimum wage goes up I need to offset those labor costs somehow. There are basically three options, first and obvious one is the raise prices. Second is to cut staffing. Third is to lower the wage gap. I always try to stress that raising prices isn't always an option because as you raise prices you'll have a segment of customers that trade down to a cheaper option (or stop purchasing that product all together). Last time I took a 5% price increase, my transactions dropped 5%. Maintaining a certain level of volume is nearly as important as maintaining a level of revenue because more volume insulates you from economic factors that are out of your control. Lower volumes leaves you extremely vulnerable during economic downturns.

So now that we addressed pricing, next we can look at cutting hours. I've definitely had to tighten up hours over the years to help accommodate wage increases but there is only so much you can do here without adopting forms of automation or cutting services. But today I am asking more of my employees than I was in 1998, resulting in an apparent increase in productivity, but it has come at the expense of a level of service.

Finally there is the wage gap. When I've tightened my belt on hours as much as I can, and the economy will not support a price increase, my only other option left is to lower the wage gap between my minimum wage employees and those who make more. In 1998 the only employees I was paying minimum wage were new hires. As they completed various aspects of their training they automatically received raises and there were some merit based raises available as well. My average kitchen-staff employee made approximately $1 above minimum wage. My shift supervisors made on average ~$3 above kitchen staff employees and my managers made ~3x more than the supervisors.

Now all my non supervisor employees make minimum wage. Until just recently my supervisors were making $1-2 more than the kitchen staff any my managers 2x the supervisors (recently I was able to fund a pay increase to my management staff due to some economic factors, some macro but some also localized). None of this is to mention the erosion in my compensation as well. The minimum wage increasing did not increase productivity, it forced me to pay minimum wage to my more productive employees rather than being able to offer them raises.

Where are these $15/hr discussions coming from besides a locality thing (generally ridiculous expensive ones)?

$15/hr nationwide would be ridiculous, only the most uninformed would think otherwise - but it seems fitting for some exceptionally expensive localities. (NYC, LA, Boston come to mind)

I'd personally be happy as a clam to see something like a $10/hr minimum wage set with a mandate that cities have their own indexing to adjust it based on some median that $10/hr is considered balanced for. (With some means of evaluating the index every 5 years or whatever)

Heck maybe not even raise the Federal minimum, but force an index on higher cost areas. Because as we always hear in such discussions "minimum wage is livable in Bumfuck, Arkansas" or whatever. When the key is for it to be a barely livable wage, if the goal isn't for those folks to live high on the hog (quite possibly literally!) then maybe it's just indexing everywhere else against them or whatever.

Just gotta figure out the baseline for what's considered livable. [Personally for me, I'd consider "qualifying for welfare/food stamps" as a good litmus and that already indexes to a degree already - no one with a fulltime job, even minimum wage should require (or qualify for) food stamps barring extreme circumstances]
Yes, the $15 an hour thing has started out localized but it is rapidly spreading.

But as far as your other points about raising the minimum wage, the problem you have here is that the majority of minimum wage employees don't need a living wage. They are teeneagers, retirees, or second household incomes. The minimum wage is a very poor way to help those in poverty (qualifying for welfare/food stamps) as they are the ones who patronize businesses that pay lower wages more frequently.

For example compare Whole Foods to Walmart. Whole Foods already pays their employees at or near $15 an hour but has a more affluent customer to support the higher costs. Walmart pays near minimum wage and has a much lower income clientele. Now you increase the minimum wage to $15 an hour Whole Foods doesn't have to change one thing and can keep all their customers. If Whole Foods decides to also proportionally increases their wages their customers can usually afford the passed on costs OR have the option of trading down to shopping at Walmart if they cannot afford Whole Foods anymore. But when Walmart is forced to raise their prices to compensate for increased labor costs their customers have no choice but to pay the increased costs. A minimum wage increase that is funded through pricing effectively acts as a super regressive sales tax that disproportionately affects lower income households.

If you want to look at helping those who cannot afford to live in their areas or those who qualify for welfare/food stamps you'd be much better off looking at options like expanding those benefits, housing benefits, or something like increase the EIC.

Oh, and just the hammer home the 'minimum wage employees don't need living wages' aspect, I'd cite papers but estimates on what percentage of minimum wage employees fall into the "not needing a living wage" category vary wildly from 70%(or lower) up 95%(or higher) depending on the the author and their agenda. Lies, damn lies, and statistics and all of that.

But anecdotally, at my business I currently employ right around 50 employees. Of those 50, exactly 6 including myself are trying to support themselves and/or their families on their income. Of those 6 exactly zero make minimum wage, all quickly moved up into management positions for the higher pay and benefits. Of the rest the vast majority are high-school/college kids who would be considered a part of middle class income households, with a small handful of second incomes, also people who would reside in a middle class household w/o their second incomes.

Also worth noting, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that an increase to $10 per hour of the federal minimum wage will result in a loss of 500,000 jobs and estimates that 4/5ths of the income gains will go to households already above the current poverty line.
 

Vaclav

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Even if your numbers are true, the point you are missing is that productivity isn't up as a result of minimum wage workers suddenly being better at their jobs. Productivity is up because businesses that employ minimum wage workers have been forced to cut staff, wages, and adopt means of automation to offset increasing labor costs. Also, for as long as we've been tracking worker productivity, wages have always naturally increased with a rise in productivity. If burger flippers have really gone from flipping 60 burgers per hour to 240 burgers per hour they will be compensated accordingly without having the government/voters forcing the wage on a business.
In most industries yes. Not in the minimum wage industries that thrive on such however - that's the problem.

I always try to stress that raising prices isn't always an option because as you raise prices you'll have a segment of customers that trade down to a cheaper option (or stop purchasing that product all together). Last time I took a 5% price increase, my transactions dropped 5%. Maintaining a certain level of volume is nearly as important as maintaining a level of revenue because more volume insulates you from economic factors that are out of your control. Lower volumes leaves you extremely vulnerable during economic downturns.
Funny, my company actively had me try to keep our wages (grocery) ahead of union wage rates to prevent unions encroaching on our business - yet my company remained more profitable with lower consistent pricing than they those places that were paying identical staff less. (And generally staffing FAR fewer - I kept 400 people at my last location, was the largest in the company at the time - most groceries in our region staffed around 4 dozen people for an entire location nearly the same size)

Now all my non supervisor employees make minimum wage. Until just recently my supervisors were making $1-2 more than the kitchen staff any my managers 2x the supervisors (recently I was able to fund a pay increase to my management staff due to some economic factors, some macro but some also localized). None of this is to mention the erosion in my compensation as well. The minimum wage increasing did not increase productivity, it forced me to pay minimum wage to my more productive employees rather than being able to offer them raises.
How many payroll hours a week we talking, are you honestly saying that your business lives and dies on what is likely a matter of $500 or less a week? If that's the case, you're not running a profitable business and should be failing anyhow - you're just offloading your failure onto your employees that aren't versed well enough in how work is supposed to operate to know better.



But as far as your other points about raising the minimum wage, the problem you have here is that the majority of minimum wage employees don't need a living wage. They are teeneagers, retirees, or second household incomes. The minimum wage is a very poor way to help those in poverty (qualifying for welfare/food stamps) as they are the ones who patronize businesses that pay lower wages more frequently.
So the majority doesn't, fuck the rest? That's an intelligent choice. If we extrapolated that out, business owners like yourself make up a minority of the overall workforce, we could just move your marginal tax rate up to 98% again and that would be fine, you're not a majority after all.

In addition when you talk about "second incomes" you do realize the majority of those working a minimum wage job as a second job do it because their other job is minimum wage as well, right?

For example compare Whole Foods to Walmart. Whole Foods already pays their employees at or near $15 an hour but has a more affluent customer to support the higher costs. Walmart pays near minimum wage and has a much lower income clientele. Now you increase the minimum wage to $15 an hour Whole Foods doesn't have to change one thing and can keep all their customers. If Whole Foods decides to also proportionally increases their wages their customers can usually afford the passed on costs OR have the option of trading down to shopping at Walmart if they cannot afford Whole Foods anymore. But when Walmart is forced to raise their prices to compensate for increased labor costs their customers have no choice but to pay the increased costs. A minimum wage increase that is funded through pricing effectively acts as a super regressive sales tax that disproportionately affects lower income households.
Uh, you do realize for the Wal-Mart example, they just jacked their employee minimum pay drastically right? And with no appreciable difference in pricing. Like it literally just happened, and I've not noticed any prices going up. Heck, they've started beating the club stores on some stuff like Ribeyes recently POST-RAISE. It's not "the only way" - as I said earlier - it's the "only way" for a business that's actually failed but is just offsetting the loss to another portion of it's balance sheet. [And this is coming from business school teaching BTW - not sure what your background is, but I've got a MSHRM - which is MBA equivalent although focused on personnel - not sure if MBA goes as in depth to such though - I'd assume that you're just running a business without a business education however though from the very narrow view you've been taking here however, claiming zero upside to greater wages is something I didn't see in my undergrad or proper business education - there's a balance to be struck for sure but it's not lopsided like your presentation]

The only reason it works with minimum wage employees is simply because of the churn that's "expected" - but it does nothing for the few that get trapped in such positions longterm - if we start saying "well most X don't Y" that's a very slippery slope that can be used to warrant punishing the highest earners, the lowest earners, the disabled, minorities, or whatever else. Stuff that flies in the face of what America is founded upon.

From a basic productivity standpoint, its of more value to a business to keep experienced employees longer - does it not? Wouldn't you rather have an employee you're paying 30% more that has two years experience and double the productivity of a starter?

If you want to look at helping those who cannot afford to live in their areas or those who qualify for welfare/food stamps you'd be much better off looking at options like expanding those benefits, housing benefits, or something like increase the EIC.
Which ends up going into taxes, generally paid for by the brackets you'd find yourself in at a far less efficient rate and higher risk of abuse and/or being set up too conservatively and leaving people in a lurch. It is ALWAYS better for someone to be able to live productively without outside intervention because things can and do go wrong. Either with people finding a loophole to qualify when they shouldn't (wasteful) or people that truly have a clear need that fall through the cracks for whatever reason. (i.e. in Mayland I'd hear complaints regarding it taking an average of SIX WEEKS to qualify for basic benefits like food stamps if you had even $1 of income, FIVE YEARS wait list for Section 8 housing, EIC by it's nature of course will always have a delay of approximately a year of course as well [and of course since it's one injection of cash every 12 months has limited value to actually improving their situation])

Oh, and just the hammer home the 'minimum wage employees don't need living wages' aspect, I'd cite papers but estimates on what percentage of minimum wage employees fall into the "not needing a living wage" category vary wildly from 70%(or lower) up 95%(or higher) depending on the the author and their agenda. Lies, damn lies, and statistics and all of that.
Note that most of those people are easy to tell quite obviously, and even with an increased wage they still wouldn't hit the numbers - because as a rule of thumb the "don't need" category ask for limited hours, rather than trying for full time. Additionally most of those reports peg it to the "poverty level" which is a bad number, which I'll cover a bit later.

Also worth noting, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that an increase to $10 per hour of the federal minimum wage will result in a loss of 500,000 jobs and estimates that 4/5ths of the income gains will go to households already above the current poverty line.
Ok two things here:
1) Poverty line: The poverty line figure is an inherently flawed statistic - for starters it doesn't account for things like the increased costs and need for furthered education to better employ oneself. It's also inordinately low for many areas. $25k or so was the poverty line for a 5 person household in 2013 - for someone stuck living in NYC looking at a minimum of a two bedroom [since with 5 obviously you'd need at least one bedroom for the parents and another for the three kids] the cheapest apartments I'm seeing on a quick search are $2600/mo - lets assume there's some cheaper but harder to find and say there's a $2k one though. Literally at poverty line they're making rent AND NOTHING ELSE - NOT EVEN FOOD/UTILITIES/ETC.

2) If you've actually read full analysis of that CBO report, it's not a flat 500k lost jobs because the jobs would disappear - the majority case is that people would stop working second jobs. I believe the estimate of jobs actually truly disappearing was around 50-100k. It was discussed on the politics thread a long time ago with a nicely elaborated explanation of how they'd disappear.

I personally hate welfare, I think it's something that should only be there for those that truly cannot work for any means - and I hate seeing businesses that abuse it's existence to pad their bottom line while only paying a small portion of the taxes to support it. Honestly pisses me off seeing companies like mine (that was regularly in the Forbes Top 100 places to work list since it was started, in the top 10 during my years there [probably still is, but get fewer updates since retiring]) pay the same portion of taxes towards welfare as the McDonald's down the street that had a dozen thirty-somethings working there no doubt many of them in the "minority" you try to whitewash in your arguments.

Honestly having welfare around to even make such abuse possible is a travesty - it serves a function - but it's function isn't supposed to be to let some businesses that would fail if the invisible hand of the market was operating unimpeded (because no one would work there if it wasn't a livable wage without means to supplement it - no employees = no productivity = failed business).

PS - For your anecdote, I will say my area I lived in growing up was the same way - but I lived in Upper Middle Class neighborhood - the minute you drifted into neighborhoods that were less nice, the demographics were clearly quite different with far fewer "kids/retirees" working and more thirty somethings stuck not able to do something better.
 

Soriak_sl

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There was a purely hypothetical study in which students were asked whether they'd rather work for Company A that paid them $50,000/year or for Company B paying $100,000/year. Super easy choice, you'd think. However, there was a twist: at Company A, most employees earned $25k. At Company B, most employees earned $150k.

The vast majority of students said they wanted to work for Company A.

What the owner of this company failed to realize is that people care about their relative position. That's why perks like a better parking spot are highly valued: it's not just more convenient to be closer to the entrance, but it signals your status because you're closer than others. It's also a fantastically cheap way to motivate people. (Not just parking spots, but even other meaningless things like a unique email address -- e.g.[email protected]/* <![CDATA[ */!function(t,e,r,n,c,a,p){try{t=document.currentScript||function(){for(t=document.getElementsByTagName('script'),e=t.length;e--;)if(t[e].getAttribute('data-cfhash'))return t[e]}();if(t&&(c=t.previousSibling)){p=t.parentNode;if(a=c.getAttribute('data-cfemail')){for(e='',r='0x'+a.substr(0,2)|0,n=2;a.length-n;n+=2)e+='%'+('0'+('0x'+a.substr(n,2)^r).toString(16)).slice(-2);p.replaceChild(document.createTextNode(decodeURIComponent(e)),c)}p.removeChild(t)}}catch(u){}}()/* ]]> */.)
 

Lejina

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Looks like those students have have no concept of the value of money and believe their entire worth is based on their standing among their peers (how much + or likes they get vs everyone else). I get it but, when you take the big picture into account, it's also pretty fucking dumb.

I wonder how much the results would have been different if the same study would have been done 10 or 20 years ago, before worshiping socialites and facebook likes were a thing. Status always been important, but for this generation it seems to be the only thing that matters.


in before old man whining at the new generation, get off my lawn, etc


Besides status, there's the idea of wasted effort at play with the guy in the story. You perform for years and you end up basically at the same place as the new hire. People expect a reward for their work and loyalty.
 

opiate82

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How many payroll hours a week we talking, are you honestly saying that your business lives and dies on what is likely a matter of $500 or less a week? If that's the case, you're not running a profitable business and should be failing anyhow - you're just offloading your failure onto your employees that aren't versed well enough in how work is supposed to operate to know better.
I'll get to the rest of your stuff in a bit, don't have time at the moment, but you can't be serious here. $500 a week = $26000 a year. Could you afford to take a $26000 annual pay cut?

For the record, ~$0.50 increase in minimum wage would increase my annual overhead by your $26000 figure.
 

Vaclav

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I'll get to the rest of your stuff in a bit, don't have time at the moment, but you can't be serious here. $500 a week = $26000 a year. Could you afford to take a $26000 annual pay cut?

For the record, ~$0.50 increase in minimum wage would increase my annual overhead by your $26000 figure.
With how the taxes work on such changes, it's not as direct as you make it sound. Assuming you're in a range where it would matter odds are you'd be flopping tax brackets, not to mention payroll itself is deductible to a degree, etc.

And you're talking about 1000 man-hours/wk of payroll based on that number, equivalent to 25 full time employees working at minimum wage (since any below minimum wage it wouldn't be relevant to) - there's only a handful of businesses that could apply to if you're not full of it. Many of which have pay benefits past minimum wage (that makes the discussion of minimum wage moot when you've got commission and tips).

Would be a very bizarre fast food place that's running with that high of staffing, like you've made it sound like you're involved with.

And considering a non-niche business (which with 1000 man-hrs/wk of payroll of minimum wage people alone, you clearly aren't niche - or you're completely misstaffed) that's profiting under $120k a year (in the 90s mind you, not sure if it adjusts for inflation) is considered "at risk" (of failing) already - unless your business is already failing, as I stated, and you're just trying to offset your losses onto your employees - yes, it's something you should be able to afford.

It honestly sounds like you're one hiccup away from becoming insolvent if you're worrying about a $26k increase in payroll destroying your business. Rule of thumb I was taught was to keep two times your annual operating capital set aside whenever possible to minimize the impact of law changes to payroll/etc once you can - thus a change like that you can adjust to gradually instead of looking like "WHAM THEY UPPED THEIR PRICES BY $1 ON EVERYTHING OVERNIGHT!" you could pace it out, look at other adjustments to employee benefits, etc.

Also you seem to neglect to understand the psychological effects of higher wages as well - did you know that call outs (a problem I'm sure you have FREQUENTLY with many minimum wage workers) go down exponentially as wages increase in comparison to inflation? You know that overstaffing that you have to do to CYA in case two people call out a shift or whatever? As you pay more it's easier to get away with 1 extra, or even ZERO as more motivated employees are more keen on picking up the slack.

TL;DR: Wage increases aren't a 1:1 cost, if you think that, you really need to take some business courses (possibly HR focused) to get you up to speed, because it's not 1:1. I'd estimate 1:0.7-0.8 or so before abstract stuff like better employee attitude/etc.
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
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Looks like those students have have no concept of the value of money and believe their entire worth is based on their standing among their peers (how much + or likes they get vs everyone else). I get it but, when you take the big picture into account, it's also pretty fucking dumb.

I wonder how much the results would have been different if the same study would have been done 10 or 20 years ago, before worshiping socialites and facebook likes were a thing. Status always been important, but for this generation it seems to be the only thing that matters.
The study was published in 1998, so must have been carried out about 20 years ago:http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/ic...being/HSPH.pdf(pretty short read and interesting!)

We use survey data to provide some empirical information about concerns regarding relative
standing. Respondents chose between a world where they have more of a good than others and one
where everyone's endowment of the good is higher, but the respondent has less than others.
Questions asked about education, attractiveness and intelligence for one's child and oneself,
income, vacation time, approval and disapproval from a supervisor, and papers to write. Half of the
respondents preferred to have 50% less real income but high relative income. Concerns about
position were strongest for attractiveness and supervisor's praise and weakest for vacation time.
I misremembered in that it was not just students who participated, but also faculty and staff -- all at the Harvard School of Public Health. And it was people preferring $50k to $100k when others earned either $25k or $200k... but close enough.

Interestingly, people cared about their relative position most for things that are hard to quantify, like attractiveness, intelligence, and praise from a supervisor. They cared least about relative position when it came to amount of work (number of vacation days and papers to write).

In their informal comments after completing the survey, respondents volunteered that
their positional choices were not motivated primarily by envy. Many seemed to see life as
an ongoing competition, in which not being ahead means falling behind. In their view,
consistent with theorists who emphasize the instrumental nature of positional concerns, a
higher relative standing leads to such desirable outcomes as access to better jobs and
education, improved marital prospects and the opportunity to pass these advantages to
one's children.

The pattern of answers ? with physical attractiveness and intelligence among the most
positional goods and vacation time the least ? suggests that positional concerns loom
larger for goods that are crucial in attaining other objectives than for goods that are
desirable primarily in themselves. Respondents' interest in their relative standing may be
a rational reaction to the way the world works.
You can't really put too much emphasis on survey questionnaires... but it's also generally not a good idea to outright ignore them.

For example, there's quite a bit of research showing that people are happier when they spend money on others than on themselves. A neat test involves researchers giving random people on the street $20 and a survey (to be filled out after spending the money and mailed back for an extra payment, I think), asking them to spend it either on themselves or on someone else. Among the survey questions (not the only one, so it's not transparent what the study is about) is how happy spending the money made them. The latter group reports substantially greater happiness.

So you could imagine a bonus system where each employee gets $10,000 to distribute among other employees. According to that research, that should make people happy -- not to mention that it's pretty efficient: you probably know who the hard working colleagues are better than the managers currently determining bonuses. However, it doesn't take much imagination to see how this plan could backfire pretty badly and end up with a toxic environment.
 

Lejina

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Well, mind blown then. I figured the relative position would play into account for sure, but people being willing to take a 50% pay cut just so they can be ahead of their peers is some wickedly petty stuff.
 

Vaclav

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Well, mind blown then. I figured the relative position would play into account for sure, but people being willing to take a 50% pay cut just so they can be ahead of their peers is some wickedly petty stuff.
Keep in mind though from what he's saying (I'm not reading it too lazy and I mostly believe the results anyhow - for one I would fall under the "surprising demographic" myself - I easily could've made $100k+bonuses with my education and connections, but took $60k+ bonuses instead because I loved the job and the benefits it gave me [and I was at a higher end of the scale compared to my peers there as well - although if that was a factor to me it was indirect) though that it was Harvard School of Public Health folks that were taking the survey - already clearly people that weigh prestige quite highly from the first word of the name.

I'd be curious if the study was every run with a more "everyman" polling sample - I'd not be shocked to see to see both groups represented as you slide lower on the scale but the ratios to be far different.
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
already clearly people that weigh prestige quite highly from the first word of the name.
Not sure you can conclude that. It's part of Harvard University, but I don't think everyone there really weighs prestige that much.

I'd be curious if the study was every run with a more "everyman" polling sample - I'd not be shocked to see to see both groups represented as you slide lower on the scale but the ratios to be far different.
Yeah, this thread made me curious as well... not least because it's been two decades and the paper doesn't tell us much about the effect of age, gender, and income. I also found the original phrasing (spoilered) somewhat confusing.

In the questions below, there are two states of the world (State A and State B). You are
asked to pick which of the two you would prefer to live in. The questions are
independent. For each question, circle either A or B, or if undecided, both A and B.
`Others' is the average other person in society.

1. Note that prices are what they are currently and prices (the purchasing power of
money) are the same in States A and B.
A: Your current yearly income is $50,000; others earn $25,000.
B: Your current yearly income is $100,000; others earn $200,000.

Anyway, this is an empirical question that we can answer pretty easily. I went toGoogle Consumer Surveysand got 100 people to answer the following question:

Imagine you have job offers in three different cities where prices are the same. Which of those yearly incomes would you prefer, where "others" is the average in the city?

(A) $50,000; others earn $25,000
(B) $100,000; others earn $200,000
(C) $25,000; others earn $50,000
Not a big fan of the phrasing, but Google imposes a character limit on the question and answer. (We could use a different tool, but this requires zero effort to collect and only costs $10.)

The ordering of the three options was randomized. Note also that Option C doesn't make sense whether you care about absolute income or relative income. I put it in there to catch people who just randomly click one answer. If you answer randomly, all of the three are equally likely. If everyone who prefers to earn less money does so only because they didn't read the question, we'd want to know about that.

And here are the responses -- as a reminder:(A) is the higher relative income option, (B) the higher income.

(A) 40
(B) 46
(C) 14

Adjusting for people responding randomly (simply subtracting 14 from A and B), we get:

(A) 26 (45%)
(B) 32 (55%)

Looks like we replicated the findings surprisingly closely!

Google imputes age, gender, income bracket, and geographic region (all of which is pretty accurate). Alas, no statistically significant differences across any of those groups -- the sample size is just way too small. But directionally, we get the following: Men and people in suburban areas prefer a higher relative income; women and those in urban & rural areas prefer a higher absolute income.


That was "fun with the social sciences." Or $10 that could have saved this business owner a lot of trouble.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Also keep in mind an educated person might also see the comparison to "average income" as a victim of inflation so to speak - rather than looking at money as literal values using it as a "Half of the average" (which is roughly poverty level compared to national averages right now isn't it?).

It's interesting regardless - I'm just not sure what we can take from it entirely.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
Not sure you can conclude that. It's part of Harvard University, but I don't think everyone there really weighs prestige that much.


Yeah, this thread made me curious as well... not least because it's been two decades and the paper doesn't tell us much about the effect of age, gender, and income. I also found the original phrasing (spoilered) somewhat confusing.

In the questions below, there are two states of the world (State A and State B). You are
asked to pick which of the two you would prefer to live in. The questions are
independent. For each question, circle either A or B, or if undecided, both A and B.
`Others' is the average other person in society.

1. Note that prices are what they are currently and prices (the purchasing power of
money) are the same in States A and B.
A: Your current yearly income is $50,000; others earn $25,000.
B: Your current yearly income is $100,000; others earn $200,000.

Anyway, this is an empirical question that we can answer pretty easily. I went toGoogle Consumer Surveysand got 100 people to answer the following question:



Not a big fan of the phrasing, but Google imposes a character limit on the question and answer. (We could use a different tool, but this requires zero effort to collect and only costs $10.)

The ordering of the three options was randomized. Note also that Option C doesn't make sense whether you care about absolute income or relative income. I put it in there to catch people who just randomly click one answer. If you answer randomly, all of the three are equally likely. If everyone who prefers to earn less money does so only because they didn't read the question, we'd want to know about that.

And here are the responses -- as a reminder:(A) is the higher relative income option, (B) the higher income.

(A) 40
(B) 46
(C) 14

Adjusting for people responding randomly (simply subtracting 14 from A and B), we get:

(A) 26 (45%)
(B) 32 (55%)

Looks like we replicated the findings surprisingly closely!

Google imputes age, gender, income bracket, and geographic region (all of which is pretty accurate). Alas, no statistically significant differences across any of those groups -- the sample size is just way too small. But directionally, we get the following: Men and people in suburban areas prefer a higher relative income; women and those in urban & rural areas prefer a higher absolute income.


That was "fun with the social sciences." Or $10 that could have saved this business owner a lot of trouble.
I'm not so sure. I don't see an option for you make 70k, average is 70k. That's a broad assumption to make that those 45% of people who don't fully understand the question's premise would also pick less salary to avoid average compensation.
 

Asshat wormie

2023 Asshat Award Winner
<Gold Donor>
16,820
30,964
There are a number of studies that relate subjective well being and relative income. A person's happiness is partially based on his status relative to those around him. I thought this was accepted as fact at this point in time.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
19,836
13,354
There's also evidence and studies saying that increase in pay correlates to increase in happiness up to about ~70k/year. Apparently it's at about that level of pay where the burdens and stresses associated with not having enough money to feel like you're keeping your head above water are gone and so increase in income doesn't necessarily make people happier anymore.

The one issue I find intriguing, and it goes back to what wormie said above, is that whenever I see/hear people complaining about this whole $15/hr for fast food workers in NY is that "They don't deserve it, what about the guy who does X who only makes $15/hr when his job is way harder/more important to society". And my answer is, well that guy... and those of you complaining, should be focusing on the real problem. The company that guy works for isn't paying him enough and he should take it up with them, not his peers working different jobs. Everyone who is a working, contributing member of society deserves to be paid a fair wage, a wage that allows them to get off government assistance programs and actually make a living. Maybe $15/hr is slightly high but $7.25 sure as shit isn't enough to live on nowadays. But people would rather keep those around them down to feel validated than ask for what they deserve from those above.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
23,481
33,794
The minimum wage laws are just terrible to begin with. They'd be much better served to mirror the DOL standard labor rates where they list a job function and a corresponding minimum in an area that a company can pay for that position. I know those aren't perfect either, but at least then they have some sort of basis in the work being done instead of saying you can't hire people to do tasks worth less than x $/hr under any circumstances.
 

Maebe_sl

shitlord
67
0
Raising the minimum wage creates an inflationary pressure. Inflation effectively reduces the values of the currency. Reducing the value of the currency reduces the US debt burden.
Owing someone 1,000$ in 1900 is very different to owing someone 1,000$ in 2000. Speeding such a process helps with the HUGE debt the US has.