Crowfall

As simple as diablo3 or league of legends. I mean I know your trying to be funny but you don't need a million buttons to be complex.

Diablo3 is not complex. It's super fun but let's not pretend it's complex. League is a much better comparison. Just like league, this games complexity should come from teamwork and coordination.

I known diablo 3 isn't complex because the gameplay isn't designed to be. But I as using it as an example of how many buttons I want to be pressing. Wasn't going deeper than that.

Have fun in todays test.

LoL is too simple, lets go with something more robust...

Draegan I heard something mentioned about Gamevox in the last test. Is there a specific channel or connection info?

Eidal_sl said:

LoL is too simple, lets go with something more robust...

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And that's only at like level 12 in EQ2

Haha, I thought that was Arcehage for a second.

Srathor, feel free to use crowns and crows gamevox for everything.GameVox - Connect to 'Crowfall'

Just download it first and that link will set it all up for you.

That was fun! Yeah it is in a rough state but with this they have something concrete to build off of. Sure the lag made it jerky and due to that the melee felt very rough, but at one point I was playing a Legionnaire and I got to fight a knight one on one, it came down to me at about 2 hits to dead and him at 1 hit and I got him first. Lots of other little fun moments too where I got clubbed like a baby seal.

Once the building and crafting and voxel destruction gets in there will be a wealth of bugs to figure out too.

Having 5 buttons that can do 20 things depending on the environment, personal combination, team combination, NPC specific quality and buffs/debuffs? Is a lot more engaging than 20 buttons than do those same 20 things. And despite having less buttons? The 5 button game that allows that level of interaction is going to be far deeper and more complex. The 20 button input/output game is a pretty simplistic chain, monkey see stimulus, monkey hit right button, monkey get reward. The 5 button in, but possible 20 output game? Requires a few more levels of attention; it requires the player to think more critically about the world to exploit possible combos.

MMO's really need to work on that, how to make each ability more meaningful, and impact, and rewarding the player with using those abilities by doing so intelligently within the confines of the variables of world--rather than just giving straight input/output rewards. One of the reasons why Dark Soulsequipmentfeels really rewarding for me, despite move sets being somewhat simplistic, for example, is the fact that it's very difficult to look at a weapons stats and see how good it is; how a weapon moves in the world, both in direction and speed? Has a massive impact on how the weapon plays...And how the weapon plays can be dramatically more or less effective with different builds and armors. That kind ofsubtleinteraction? Is more complex than rows of abilities.

I'm hoping given friendly fire, arcs/ranges for spells and melee swings, and other environmental interactions, Crow-fall does only have a few abilities. I'd rather have very few abilities that have real consequence, and need you to survey the world/environment/targets to use effectively than a glut of abilities that have a very narrow and specific outcome that I simply hit in order.

Lithose_sl said:

Having 5 buttons that can do 20 things depending on the environment, personal combination, team combination, NPC specific quality and buffs/debuffs

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sounds like eq2.

No, EQ2 is 20 buttons that can do five things.

5 abilities works in LoL because you only play a character for 45 minutes and then you get a chance to switch to someone else. Limited number of abilities can work in certain MMORPG contexts (e.g. Guild Wars 1, with its hundreds of unique abilities and combos to choose from), but in general MMO characters require more depth than that. I certainly wasn't the only person who got bored as shit in GW2, unlocking all my abilities by level 10 and realising the character was exactly the same except +better for the remaining 70 levels.

Shaod_sl said:

5 abilities works in LoL because you only play a character for 45 minutes and then you get a chance to switch to someone else. Limited number of abilities can work in certain MMORPG contexts (e.g. Guild Wars 1, with its hundreds of unique abilities and combos to choose from), but in general MMO characters require more depth than that. I certainly wasn't the only person who got bored as shit in GW2, unlocking all my abilities by level 10 and realising the character was exactly the same except +better for the remaining 70 levels.

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So much this. That's one of my gripes with FFXIV too.

ZombieWizardhawk_sl said:

So much this. That's one of my gripes with FFXIV too.

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What class in FFXIV doesn't get abilities that are good after level 10?

ZombieWizardhawk_sl said:

So much this. That's one of my gripes with FFXIV too.

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FFXIV is starting to journey up the ability bloat path as well. Once you start having to use a mouse with 12 buttons, and most of your number and letter keys mapped to different skills anywhere close to your left hand on the keyboard the game is getting pretty bloated. Not sure why you think FFXIV only has a few abilities?




Anyways, I am not a fan of wrestling with eleventy billion skills in order to just start playing the game at a mediocre level. I got one of the invites to come back to WoW recently, logged in saw the metric fuckton of skills and situational abilities all across the bottom and sides of the screen and proceeded to close that shit down and uninstall.



What I would like is very much like what Lithose said: Classes have fewer basic inputs but these chain into more complex combos that you need to tactically choose from depending on the situation. These chains also can grow and change as your character levels. This can also invite alot of counter play and combo breaking/feints as opponents try to outplay eachother.

This also has the fortunate side effect of being alot more interesting to watch as well since you can follow along with the animations as to what a character is doing, combos will grow and flow along more naturally, rather then a bunch of static one off animations or effects for trinkets, activated, and long CD's situational abilities.

Shaod_sl said:

5 abilities works in LoL because you only play a character for 45 minutes and then you get a chance to switch to someone else. Limited number of abilities can work in certain MMORPG contexts (e.g. Guild Wars 1, with its hundreds of unique abilities and combos to choose from), but in general MMO characters require more depth than that. I certainly wasn't the only person who got bored as shit in GW2, unlocking all my abilities by level 10 and realising the character was exactly the same except +better for the remaining 70 levels.

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I'm OK with having a ton of abilities but having to slot them the way you want. It's already done on plenty of games. Diablo3 for one.

With the way the combo system looks like it will work you use basic mouse left clicks to build then can pick what you need to do with the 1-6 keys. The knight is a good example. # 1 is a two step combo. First press is a charge second press stops the charge and strikes. That strike can stun. But if you have shitty timing or aim then you might want to interrupt with a block (Right mouse click) If you hit them and stun then the probable best option is the Turrent massive hit shield slam. (#2 button) Because you are almost never going to land that on a moving / non stunned opponent. Or you might go into the multi hit optional choice combo with #4 that can be swapped from an AE slam (knockdown) or more damage.

All that crap above means even though there were only 7 total buttons depending on follow through from the secondary choice you have many more options. That makes for a pretty damn interesting game once you learn the pluses and minuses of your class vrs the other classes. Of course with the lag it was rough to get a feel for nuance, but time and polish will make it better, at least I know right now they are on a pretty good path.

Just look at the archetype ability graphic. There are so far 6 ability keys, a lmb "auto attack", a right click block/charge/dodge, a reactive E button, a special ability C button.

If your 4 button has a skill attached to it, you press 4 to engage the skill, then the next level might be just 4 again, then you might have a 4 or E option. Then to keep branching you spam that button.

Shaod_sl said:

5 abilities works in LoL because you only play a character for 45 minutes and then you get a chance to switch to someone else. Limited number of abilities can work in certain MMORPG contexts (e.g. Guild Wars 1, with its hundreds of unique abilities and combos to choose from), but in general MMO characters require more depth than that. I certainly wasn't the only person who got bored as shit in GW2, unlocking all my abilities by level 10 and realising the character was exactly the same except +better for the remaining 70 levels.

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The thing is, this is only this way because of how bland and linear MMO abilities currently are. Imagine an ability that had a dozen different outcomes depending on target, number of targets hit, environment, debuffs, buffs, combos (Something actually in this game) and then augmentations based on build and gear. Current MMO abilities are very specific and exacting, it's why everyone thinks you need to layer on more for more complexity. But one of the serious fall backs in MMO's vs say, a table top game? Is losing that ability to do something unique given a situation with an ability. MMO's should really try to re-capture that feeling of the world and your character drastically changing how an ability plays.

In other words, most games feel like you have to give the character more depth/breadth by adding abilities...I kind of wish the game would give abilities more depth/breadth by adding to the character, and using player experience (IE knowing how to use an ability better in game, knowing which mobs have unique interactions and which environmental effects do). The former (Simply giving more) is just asking a player to memorize a wider breadth of outputs; while the latter is asking a player to learn about the world and how he likes to use abilities, in order to augment them/use them better. But yeah, the former does offer character growth, having just 5 current model MMO abilities wouldn't do. But as said, Crowfall has FF, arcs and other things that other MMOs do not have--that alone already gives abilities a lot more depth.

I don't know, I guess this whole mind set of "spam abilities ASAP in order" has come up because of how insignificant most abilities actually are. You only ever really notice an ability in the current MMO world when the stars align and it is super clutch (Again, because in most cases, abilities are perfunctory.)...A game with some deeper abilities with a lot more consequence and variables? You might be able to capture that "clutch" feeling more often...and I think having that kind of play is more engaging, but just my opinion, I could certainly be wrong.