Crowfall

If this works out I'm on board so far. My only worry with full loot games is the amount of farming shit to keep stocked. IE, if 'dying' is as easy as it is in other games but you are like 'oh shit there go my bracers again' and it's more logistics than gameplay it will be tiring after awhile.

I know it isn't on our radar, but Wizard 101 and Pirate 101 (both games designed by the Crowfall guys) were both good games that did what they were supposed to (though targeted at a MUCH younger audience). They also did a reasonable job of balancing both F2P and subs. Earth shattering games? No, but good, solid games that have run for a long time (Wizard was released in 2008) -- wikipedia says there are 50 million players. I don't know if that is accurate, but it means that Todd can make a game that his target audience likes.

Can he do it for the more hardcore group? I think so, and I like the vision they are laying out. I am VERY skeptical of games until they come out (eh, tu Tuco?), so I'll ultimately believe it when I see it, but I hold out some hope.

That's like all... wrong. I don't think you have any experience with cash shops at all. That kind of mentality hasn't existed since Runes of Magic or that shitty Allods games (or any Korean made game). SWTOR, GW2 and Rift all were made better by the model and don't have any shitty mechanics layered on top of it.

Tuco_sl said:

Not sure what you mean. It seems like every game out there is trying to microtransact as much as possible.

Personally I like the sub-model. The game company is motivated to keep you from cancelling your sub rather than being motivated to get you to keep reaching into your pockets like a keyboard turner in an arcade. Maybe I'm extra salty because I'm playing one of the worst P2W games in MMO history, but I not only hate that most top-geared players are p2w, I also hate that the credit card warriors are 10x more valuable to the developers than I am.

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I think he just meant that there ARE games that are F2P that are worth playing (Dota2 and League, among others), and that all F2P games are not just garbage that people won't pay for. The HUGE benefit to F2P is that you get enough players to play and keep the matchmaking/pvp/sieges/whatever going. No pay wall = more people playing, which in turn CAN (but not guaranteed) mean the game stays fun for longer.

Tuco_sl said:

Not sure what you mean. It seems like every game out there is trying to microtransact as much as possible.

Personally I like the sub-model. The game company is motivated to keep you from cancelling your sub rather than being motivated to get you to keep reaching into your pockets like a keyboard turner in an arcade. Maybe I'm extra salty because I'm playing one of the worst P2W games in MMO history, but I not only hate that most top-geared players are p2w, I also hate that the credit card warriors are 10x more valuable to the developers than I am.

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Archeage is a shitty game with a shitty model and shitty korean rng jesus crafting. It's to be expected.

Personally I don't care what a game offers. If they put in a shitty cash shop that is p2w then I won't play it. I have no problem with games like LOL or SWTOR where I can pay a sub or not, and still buy shit if I want like xp boosts or a pretty hat.

Draegan_sl said:

That's like all... wrong. I don't think you have any experience with cash shops at all. That kind of mentality hasn't existed since Runes of Magic or that shitty Allods games (or any Korean made game). SWTOR, GW2 and Rift all were made better by the model and don't have any shitty mechanics layered on top of it.

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Crafting seems to use very few materials. A 1 handed sword takes 3 metals/1 leather/1 flux/2 additives/and 1 item (couldn't decipher it). Basic metals take 2 ores and an alloy takes 3 ores. If it's anything like Landmark, gathering shouldn't be too difficult.

The game company is motivated to keep you from cancelling your sub rather than being motivated to get you to keep reaching into your pockets like a keyboard turner in an arcade.

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This...

SWTOR, GW2 and Rift all were made better by the model and don't have any shitty mechanics layered on top of it.

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In what way? Just getting their numbers back up? Why did people leave? Why did it take the model to revive some of their numbers? It made their numbers look a little better but it was still a desperate move in all cases to keep the games from practically shutting down. So now you have a change in model.. the game is no longer incurring revenue based on the game itself but hoping that game is good enough, at no cost, to hit people up for a little in game cash. If you put a subscription cost back on the game what do you think will happen?

I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact is made those games better, at least financially, but wouldn't it be a better indicator of the quality of the game if it was sub based and not FTP? At least with the current state of the genre.

It may be we just agree to disagree. I just know if a new game comes out and it is micro transaction based, I know what will be in the back of my mind and it will have to overcome that stigma. Just as I know if it is sub based... which interprets to it will have to be pretty freaking good to keep me from month to month.

That's just your mental problem that you can't get over. Honestly, SWTOR and Rift are the same game before or after the switch, they just opened up their doors to more players. Like it or not, people are more apt to try a game out for free than drop a box price + sub top check it out. It get's the to sub or spend whatever cash they feel necessary and have fun. Believe it or not a box price is a hurdle for trying a game out and honestly has no bearing on how the game really is.

None of those games, SWTOR or Rift have any shitty cash shop items that would turn anyone off. If you don't like the game solely based on it's business model and not because the game is fun or not is just plain stupid.

I think your problem is in the thinking "oh this game went from sub to free to play so it has to be shitty" automatically without actually looking at the game. You need to get over it.

Draegan_sl said:

That's like all... wrong. I don't think you have any experience with cash shops at all. That kind of mentality hasn't existed since Runes of Magic or that shitty Allods games (or any Korean made game). SWTOR, GW2 and Rift all were made better by the model and don't have any shitty mechanics layered on top of it.

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All made better? They were on life support and had no choice but to go F2P. That's like making a horrible movie that no one goes to see, so you don't charge anyone admission so they'll show up and buy popcorn and soda and saying "See! The movie is good! We're making money!"
If the MMO is worth paying a monthly sub for, people will pay it.

Recent dev quotes:

Ref: Tanks in PVP

FORUM POSTER:
For example, the simple taunt. I'm not saying force a player to attack you, but make the choice difficult. Say a tank taunts a player, which lasts say 8 seconds. That player can choose to attack anyone but the tank, but say they get a slight debuff of some sort. Like say reduced damage or less accuracy. But if they choose to attack the tank that taunted them, no debuff is applied.

DEV RESPONSE:
This is what we did on Warhammer Online. It was a pretty great way of making tanks actually tank in pvp. There are other options too of course, but this is a totally viable idea.

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Ref: Large scale combat / action combat

I'm hoping we can take a mix of the pieces we all like to make a great action system by:
Using physics player capsules.
Using physics powers.
Reducing the wade into the middle and AoE spam as the default action.
Figuring out a way to have some healing that doesn't give us back line "fire hose" healers.

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Ref: Why there is no snow, yet there is a stage 4 "winter" creature in the new screenshots

The true reason for this is simple. We just don't have all the in-between states 100% finished yet. So we made the decision to show off the sexy end-state Zombie!
Fear not. Winter is ... approaching.

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And because it wasn't poster here earlier, the art for all 4 "Hunger" stages of a Zombie.

Wont keep me from playing it but I'm really fucking tired of zombies.

Abefroman_sl said:

Wont keep me from playing it but I'm really fucking tired of zombies.

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Its just an RPG standard man, like skeletons and dragons and shit

Big Flex_sl said:

Recent dev quotes:

Ref: Tanks in PVP


Ref: Large scale combat / action combat


Ref: Why there is no snow, yet there is a stage 4 "winter" creature in the new screenshots


And because it wasn't poster here earlier, the art for all 4 "Hunger" stages of a Zombie.

Spoiler

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Bruh...the yellow color is hard to read on the mobile version. You're killing me here...

Flipmode_sl said:

Bruh...the yellow color is hard to read on the mobile version. Your're killing me here...

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Reading this on my phone as we speak and ur right. My b. I'll switch to something more visible.

Draegan_sl said:

That's like all... wrong. I don't think you have any experience with cash shops at all. That kind of mentality hasn't existed since Runes of Magic or that shitty Allods games (or any Korean made game). SWTOR, GW2 and Rift all were made better by the model and don't have any shitty mechanics layered on top of it.

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I'm not hating on cash shops at all but hitting the right ratio between putting your new stuff in the cash shop and making it obtainable through some kind of gameplay is a tough balance. For example I think GW2 was doing it wrong during their first 1.5 years and had too few skins/minis/toys that you gained from loot or achievements compared to their cash shop additions. For the last year or so they had a much better split between cash shop and items obtained through achievements/drops.

Draegan_sl said:

None of those games, SWTOR or Rift have any shitty cash shop items that would turn anyone off.

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Didn't SWTOR make you pay for an extra action bar, or force you into a sub to get one?

etchazz_sl said:

All made better? They were on life support and had no choice but to go F2P. That's like making a horrible movie that no one goes to see, so you don't charge anyone admission so they'll show up and buy popcorn and soda and saying "See! The movie is good! We're making money!"
If the MMO is worth paying a monthly sub for, people will pay it.

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For some games sure, not all of them. SWTOR is a pretty damn good DIKU game if that floats your boat. By lowering the barrier of entry they've attracted a shit load more people then forcing players to buy a box and pay a fee to try the game. With so many options out there, you need to have a low barrier of entry for either coming back and trying it out again or trying for the first time. That's the market place. Games like WOW can still charge sub fees because they're the "best" game out there according to the market.

In any case, a lot of these games actually have sub fees and they still get a lot of people paying them.

Mr Creed_sl said:

I'm not hating on cash shops at all but hitting the right ratio between putting your new stuff in the cash shop and making it obtainable through some kind of gameplay is a tough balance. For example I think GW2 was doing it wrong during their first 1.5 years and had too few skins/minis/toys that you gained from loot or achievements compared to their cash shop additions. For the last year or so they had a much better split between cash shop and items obtained through achievements/drops.

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Sure. There are shitty cash shops and good cash shops. Never said they were all perfect. I'm just saying it doesn't automatically turn me off.