Crowfall

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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The real question is: why do you want a PvE world?

You do realize that, for the vast majority of PvP players in GW2, the "persistent PvE world" is, at best, a Lion Arch-shaped lobby where they log in because you're kicked from the WvW map when you disconnect. The only advantage of mixing a PvE and a PvP world is for the PvE players, not the PvPers. It means the PvE crowd can dip its toes into some PvP from time to time. The PvP-oriented players don't engage in the PvE experience.

So, yea, since it's a PvP game, not a PvE with PvP tacked, there's no large PvE world.

The result is simple: you get UO, pre-trammel. You get a game which is designed to attract sheep for wolves to slaughter. Except the sheeps know better after 20 years, and they're not going to touch it.

The problem of having permanent consequences (worth fighting over) is that, by now, if you lose, you uninstall the game, and move on. There's dozens of games to play. Make losing sting too much and the game loses. That's what doomed the ancestor of Crowall: once you'd lost, it was over, and you most likely canceled your account. Maybe a few would toughen it out, but that didn't make a game viable.

That's what they learned, and why they move to a campaign-based format. Losing doesn't set you back, it means you've not progressed.
The way you phrased that implies the PVE world is seperate, like in GW2. I dont want that. I do want a world with a PVE component though. I thought that will be the case here, at least there are some references to monsters. That doesnt mean I want to grind +gooder rare drops like in a theme park MMO. Instead I was expecting it to be more like EVE. EVE has plenty of PVE that triggers PVP encounters - usually smaller scale which is more fun for me anyway.

At this point I'm no longer sure Crowfall will have that - it sounds more and more like Planetside 2 where you just hold Irondick Outpost and the resources roll in until you are driven out. Which isnt bad, love me some PS2, but it's not what I was expecting early on.

I'm wondering how big the worlds will be and how random they can make it - exploring a new world, securing a good location and building up a village, getting into fights while doing so is my draw here. That's spring I guess. By the time I'm on guard duty on some tower so the crafters can mine in peace I'll likely lose interest, which would be summer in Crowfall. Winter sounds interesting again depending on how it actually works - a last stand vs the zombie apocalypse style ending is always fun.

With the Kickstarter drawing to a close there are fewer facts then I expected (and some I dont like) and I downgraded my pledge accordingly. Still getting the base game, but not gung-ho enough to throw triple digits at it. I mean, with that money I could get another virtual starship that I can walk through in my hangar *right now*, right?
 
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Anything that had world pvp/FFA pvp, as opposed to battlegrounds/arena type gameplay. Though obviously, you could argue that's just as real pvp as any other sort of pvp, but generally real pvp means random forced pvp, in opposition to consensual pvp.
Cool I'm in there. Vanguard FFA PvP with Ascendency from beta to server merge.
 

Harkon

Vyemm Raider
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The way you phrased that implies the PVE world is seperate, like in GW2. I dont want that. I do want a world with a PVE component though. I thought that will be the case here, at least there are some references to monsters. That doesnt mean I want to grind +gooder rare drops like in a theme park MMO. Instead I was expecting it to be more like EVE. EVE has plenty of PVE that triggers PVP encounters - usually smaller scale which is more fun for me anyway.

At this point I'm no longer sure Crowfall will have that - it sounds more and more like Planetside 2 where you just hold Irondick Outpost and the resources roll in until you are driven out. Which isnt bad, love me some PS2, but it's not what I was expecting early on.

I'm wondering how big the worlds will be and how random they can make it - exploring a new world, securing a good location and building up a village, getting into fights while doing so is my draw here. That's spring I guess. By the time I'm on guard duty on some tower so the crafters can mine in peace I'll likely lose interest, which would be summer in Crowfall. Winter sounds interesting again depending on how it actually works - a last stand vs the zombie apocalypse style ending is always fun.

With the Kickstarter drawing to a close there are fewer facts then I expected (and some I dont like) and I downgraded my pledge accordingly. Still getting the base game, but not gung-ho enough to throw triple digits at it. I mean, with that money I could get another virtual starship that I can walk through in my hangar *right now*, right?
Only if your a pleb, the real men are still waiting to walk through their 4 digit ships in unobtanium time.
 

Vitality

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Things you might have missed over the last week of Kickstarter comments:

Comment on number of concurrent campaigns active
- @Gerolux This is going to be very dependent on population of the overall game. Our goal is to have as many as possible, but at least a few of each all the time.

Comment on Char/Guild name reservation
- @creoterra I've got no idea what info Kickstarter sends us at the end of the campaign, but we would use the date first backed if it's available, not the backer number for all the naming rewards. They will be done in batches starting with the first 1/10th of the people and working our way up.

Comment on Syncing KS info to Crowfall website info
- Exactly, we'll send emails using your KS information to link to your Crowfall account. Better get your crowfall.com account in place!

- @Rhea The ability to change your email on the crowfall website should be working sometime early next week. Sorry it's down right now!

Comment on Characters traveling between EK and Campaign
- @Michael - you can log into your EK or your Campaign World with the same character. Your character cannot move things between the two while on campaign though.

Comments on EK taxes
- @Joshua Will the currency or resources required for the tax and maintenance fees only be available in campaign worlds? This is not settled yet, but the entire core of the game is based upon the Campaign Worlds and EK's being dependent on each other. I'd bet that you'll need inputs from the campaign worlds to make this work, whether you get them yourself or barter for them. If I am a tenant, who is responsible for taxes and maintenance... The owner of the building or parcel is responsible for the system maintenance fees. They can charge those under them whatever they want, presumably to pay for the maintenance fees. We haven't yet discussed someone else being able to pay for you yet. How often are taxes paid? We haven't decided on the payment periods, but you will be able to escrow future payments.

Comment on Character Control
- @Brian and @Black Wolf Think of our camera and controls like those in TERA or ESO. You have a mode you can go into to give you free mouse and a mode you are in while moving or fighting.

Comment on PVE in EK's
- @Shilo My understanding is that there will specific parcels with PvE spawns, I hope that helps

Comment on Traveling between EKs not yet in the game
- You will be able to travel between EK's. That part of the design is not complete, so we're not ready to talk about it. I recommend you start a suggestion thread on it on the forums about it though!
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I feel like EKs are designed for the people who log into the game then sit in town all night spamming faction chat with bullshit.
 

Valor_sl

shitlord
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No offense, Valor, (and I agree with both your broader point about EKs in this post and appreciate you getting information from the developers) but it's been quite a long time since LotD went into a game and "just fck'd people's shit up."

Weren't you part of that fail alliance in GW2 along with Team Legacy (lol) and RUIN (double lol?) I believe PRX and that group of folks Tuco and company put together - Titan Alliance - destroyed your team regularly.
Wasn't your team regularly destroyed by Condemned in ESO until they broke up?
What's the last game you guys actually dominated in? ArcheAge (lol)? Age of Conan?

I'm really not trying to make this a "shots fired" post and again, appreciate your developer access, but come on dude...
I'm not really sure how LotD's history affects the fact that our community had already discussed 80% of the topics presented in the 2 pages leading up to that post and I took those concerns, (the same concerns from the folks here), directly to the developers to receive the insight that I've since brought back.







but... because you asked, let's talk some history.

1. GW2 we teamed up with TL initially, yes but they're now KOS to us because they are led by a moron. We transferred to two separate T3 servers that we took to T1 until Blackgate, containing the Beastgate alliance which we founded, competed for #1 while SoR and whatever that other server was started nuthugging. PRX always was our best fights and definitely won more of the engagements. I could give some excuses, but their alliance/server was great competition. Blackgate was the server that took over #1, which I believe coincided with PRX drawing down their presence. Sometimes, being second in one of the largest MMO's on the market isn't all bad.

2. ESO.... Really? I don't think we'll even claim that as a chapter that game was so shitty. We just ran 20-30 people and skirmished.

3. Since AoC, we wiped out a 1200 man Goon alliance in WAR thus killing our server as they quit. Darkfall NA, we teamed up with Sinister and owned half the world, though I wasn't a big fan of how that effort was run.


Sorry for the sidestory here. Sometimes the butthurt is strong.
 

Valor_sl

shitlord
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I feel like EKs are designed for the people who log into the game then sit in town all night spamming faction chat with bullshit.
On the flipside, you can sit in an EK with just your friends and kick out anyone who spams in faction chat.
smile.png


Not sure how in game recruitment is going to work.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I think recruitment will be entirely driven on how well they manage to enable a small, tight-knit group of people to generate wealth ingame and engage in small group PvP.

If the entire thing devolves into zerg vs zerg with a high cost of losing in PvP you'll probably just see people rushing to whatever guilds are successful on campaigns, and the established smaller guilds will ally up.
 

Valor_sl

shitlord
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0
I think recruitment will be entirely driven on how well they manage to enable a small, tight-knit group of people to generate wealth ingame and engage in small group PvP.

If the entire thing devolves into zerg vs zerg with a high cost of losing in PvP you'll probably just see people rushing to whatever guilds are successful on campaigns, and the established smaller guilds will ally up.
I'm hopeful that between maps, rulesets, and game mechanics that they can successfully prevent Crowfall from requiring alliances to be the most efficient means of success.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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I like how you can always log in to your EK or campaign at any time soon it restrictions on item movement. That makes more sense to me.
 

Vitality

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I like how you can always log in to your EK or campaign at any time soon it restrictions on item movement. That makes more sense to me.
Yeah I'm glad they're solidifying details on this. I plan to spend atleast some time in EK's because player vendors and VIP time purchases with campaign materials etc (hopefully).

So atleast I know now it won't be a once a month or once every 3 months thing.
 

Valor_sl

shitlord
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Looking For A Quality Guild - Guilds - Crowfall Community


I got a good chuckle out of this post.


No problem man and welcome to the forum. The major guild atm are

1. The Lantern Watch
2. Pax Maelstrom
3. The Guardians
4. Knight of Shadows
5. Shipwrecked Pirates
6. Wehrmacht
7. The Knights of Glory and Beer
8. The Hive
9. Sociatas Daemonica
10. Order of the Wise Ones
11. Guild of Assassins
12. Obsidian
13. Stormcrows

These are the few that I can think of atm. I did not rank them based on popularity, I just placed them in random orders. You can check them out to get a better idea of what you want for a guild
smile.png
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
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Can we post that we are offering a quality guild experience for Crowfall but no one on their forum is acceptable?
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
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The real question is: why do you want a PvE world?

You do realize that, for the vast majority of PvP players in GW2, the "persistent PvE world" is, at best, a Lion Arch-shaped lobby where they log in because you're kicked from the WvW map when you disconnect. The only advantage of mixing a PvE and a PvP world is for the PvE players, not the PvPers. It means the PvE crowd can dip its toes into some PvP from time to time. The PvP-oriented players don't engage in the PvE experience.

So, yea, since it's a PvP game, not a PvE with PvP tacked, there's no large PvE world.

The result is simple: you get UO, pre-trammel. You get a game which is designed to attract sheep for wolves to slaughter. Except the sheeps know better after 20 years, and they're not going to touch it.

The problem of having permanent consequences (worth fighting over) is that, by now, if you lose, you uninstall the game, and move on. There's dozens of games to play. Make losing sting too much and the game loses. That's what doomed the ancestor of Crowall: once you'd lost, it was over, and you most likely canceled your account. Maybe a few would toughen it out, but that didn't make a game viable.

That's what they learned, and why they move to a campaign-based format. Losing doesn't set you back, it means you've not progressed.
You better hope their are advantages of mixing PvE and PvP, because according to the KS page that's how it's going to be in Crowfall!

But that's the problem. Instead of just being presented with a complex, meaningful world, we may see yet another game that over-designs their game by trying to segment and control every aspect of it. This has been the greater problem for years in MMOs. They separate high level players from low, questers from explorers, raid from group from solo, and most egregiously they separate PvP from PvE as if they aren't and shouldn't be intrinsically intertwined to make both more rewarding.

People move on when games suck, not because they died in PvP. That's a bullshit misconception, just like everyone doesn't ragequit from Darksouls or their first raid wipe. You leave when a game isn't worth continuing to play, whether it's because you're dying and have no motivation to fight back or it's so fucking boring because the game is holding your hand or you're sick of queueing up for PvP because it's also boring because the game is holding your hand.

Full, open-world FFA may be a niche, but it's not instant fail if you don't hold people's hands or apologize that they loaded a game. Crowfall is also going to be a niche. So why not embrace the niche and try to be the best of it, instead of making the same mistakes they seem to be making at times by adding in too many 'buts' and holding people's hands. We'll have

More bullshit semantics about how losing doesn't set you back, it means you've not progressed. What the fuck does that even mean? :p

And why do I keep seeing the argument various places that Crowfall is doing something we haven't seen, filling a niche that is sorely lacking at the moment, but then people defend their decisions by saying there are tons of other games people will leave to play so they have to -insert hand holding or nut cupping mechanic- or people will leave! Be the best you can be by fully embracing the niche, doing it half assed may blow up in their face, like how many people are going to like EK, but many will also ignore it and many others will just wonder how cool it would be to have it in the 'actual' game.

The most detrimental aspect of the KS hype is all the people championing this notion that Crowfall is a PvP game, and thus won't have PvE, when if you read the nuts and bolts of the game it sounds like it'll have a hell of a lot of PvE to me (which actually is one thing I'm excited about). What it may or may not be lacking is a large, open-world for that PvE. Like I've said, other games put PvP in it's own instances when they could have easily enough just turned it on in the open world. Now, Crowfall is putting some PvE protected in the EK, and may not have maps that feel all that large or open, but it's the same concept of segregating content and protecting players instead of just letting players protect themselves and decide what content they value.
 

Vitality

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What other game is offering 1 to 3 month procedurally generated worlds where its core gameplay focus is PVP.

I'd like to know so I can play it.

Also popsicle, if you wouldn't mind slapping a TL;DR summation on your posts I'd really appreciate it. In no offense. I'm bypassing a good portion of your point due to conjecture.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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popsicle I feel like you don't know enough about the game to even begin to effectively consider the major challenges are facing it.



I do think, however, that there should be zero PvE in the EK. I don't even know what they plan to have crafters 'craft' in the EK other than turning materials won in the campaigns into trophies.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
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The EK is about the most disappointing thing. All the 'be your own ruler' hype isn't going to be an enduring feature of the game. It'll be that cool, new thing people tinker with, and then what's the point? You're not going to be holding court as a line of noobs hope to be graced with your presence to solve some property line dispute with your neighbor.

Are you going to be a "Benevolent monarch or iron-fisted tyrant, what kind of kingdom will you rule?" Why would I give a shit what type of ruler you were, we'll all be in the Campaign farming mat! And then one or two dudes in your guild who don't PvP often enough will decorate your castle and nobody outside your guild will have any reason to ever be there or see it.

At least they could have made the EK a persistent, universal lobby. Make there be plots of land you essentially earn by your prowess in the Campaigns. Then everyone sees they're going up against a badass army because it's their castle right in the middle of town while your guild barely has a hut. Want a castle? Win more campaigns. Let people SEE your status instead of, once again, segregating players under some bullshit notion the EK is going to be some kingdom building game-within-a-game. Could drive even more pay-to-decorate revenue!