Death of a Game - Everquest franchise

Fight

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I bet DBG bought 90% of those lifetime subs after purchases trailed off and now are re-releasing it when they found they're numbers are just a tiny smidge less than what they need to hit for some arbitrary end of the year sales figure.
It wouldn't surprise me if a very small number of actual people bought the 4,000 subs. I bet, 800-1200 people accounted for the 4,000 purchases. Why anyone would think this company is going to exist by 2021 to even hit the break even point on this purchase is mind boggling.
 

Tuco

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I'm disappointed in you if you're not using voiceattack in some fashion with this setup.
I boxed a shaman in WoW during WotLK with this. Windows had just come out with a new voice recognition software and I had just watched Ironman.

It was pretty terrible, way better to hit buttons on a keyboard than wait for the latency of speaking + recognition.

Plus I got tired of yelling frost shock.
 
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Tuco

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It wouldn't surprise me if a very small number of actual people bought the 4,000 subs. I bet, 800-1200 people accounted for the 4,000 purchases. Why anyone would think this company is going to exist by 2021 to even hit the break even point on this purchase is mind boggling.
EQ will exist in 2021, it's just a question of what form. DBG is pioneering how cheaply they can make these expansions and still retain customers and the answer is extremely cheap.
 
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a_skeleton_05

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I boxed a shaman in WoW during WotLK with this. Windows had just come out with a new voice recognition software and I had just watched Ironman.

It was pretty terrible, way better to hit buttons on a keyboard than wait for the latency of speaking + recognition.

Plus I got tired of yelling frost shock.

It has improved over the years, but yeah, it's not ability usage you want it for. Activating macros with a word, moving clients/windows setups and sending specific commands to individual/groups of clients is where it shines. Plus it really adds to the multibox hackerman experience.
 

iannis

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Also this thread is full of a bunch of old men. Behold, the final form of Everquest:
Ohh Camelot - Imgur.gif
 
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Elidroth

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EQ will exist in 2021, it's just a question of what form. DBG is pioneering how cheaply they can make these expansions and still retain customers and the answer is extremely cheap.


It's not that so much.. The team is very small. When I left we had 5 designers I think.. a couple coders.. and a couple artists.. You can thank Ponytail for the ridiculous staffing numbers. He gutted us when his 'Landmark is a real game' bullshit happened. It's hard to find people within DBG who want to work on EQ too.. although we routinely got the biggest royalty bonuses over the years. Creating new zones is VERY time consuming, so I understand the reusing of old zones to create new content completely. Plus the old zones have much greater connection to people's nostalgia that some new 'Oh, we never saw this island off the coast of X' stuff..
 
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Elidroth

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It wouldn't surprise me if a very small number of actual people bought the 4,000 subs. I bet, 800-1200 people accounted for the 4,000 purchases. Why anyone would think this company is going to exist by 2021 to even hit the break even point on this purchase is mind boggling.

They'll exist. Even if they pare down to just EQ/EQ2/DCUO/H1Z1. Those games are profitable. I've heard response to Planetside: Arena is very good actually. I don't know if that'll translate into money, but the game is apparently good/fun. Plus it's MUCH more flexible than the original game due to using Unreal Engine.
 
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Reht

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They'll exist. Even if they pare down to just EQ/EQ2/DCUO/H1Z1. Those games are profitable. I've heard response to Planetside: Arena is very good actually. I don't know if that'll translate into money, but the game is apparently good/fun. Plus it's MUCH more flexible than the original game due to using Unreal Engine.
Are you sure it's using Unreal? They made comments that improvements made in Arena would also trickle back to PS2 in a couple of streams and it definitely looks like it's using the same engine. Not saying you're wrong, just curious.
 

Tuco

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It's not that so much.. The team is very small. When I left we had 5 designers I think.. a couple coders.. and a couple artists.. You can thank Ponytail for the ridiculous staffing numbers. He gutted us when his 'Landmark is a real game' bullshit happened. It's hard to find people within DBG who want to work on EQ too.. although we routinely got the biggest royalty bonuses over the years. Creating new zones is VERY time consuming, so I understand the reusing of old zones to create new content completely. Plus the old zones have much greater connection to people's nostalgia that some new 'Oh, we never saw this island off the coast of X' stuff..
TBH I don't get why they don't reuse zones even more. I don't know if the artists in 2002 were just better staffed or more talented or more in-tune with creating interesting, better playing zones but in the last few expansions I liked the re-used zones better than the new ones. Maybe it really just is nostalgia.

I don't know if you saw this or care, but this post by Dzarn about why there are so few AAs in the new expansion belongs in this thread:
Strap in, it's a long post...



Obviously communication has been lacking on the systems front lately and I hope to offer the community a little insight. I'll lead with the main question and expound from there.



TLDR

Scheduling is tight and we don't have enough people.





Why so few AAs this time?

For the better part of 3 years I have been working as both a systems designer and and programmer, with the last 1.5 years of my time being split at approximately 70% code hours 30% design hours. The opportunity to gain experience working on larger code initiatives in addition to the smaller bugfixing I was previously doing to keep the game running was something that made a lot of sense. Not to mention the financial incentive to move onto the engineering track from the design track.



Going back to last year, in the 2-3 months leading up to the previous expansion I clocked in approximately 754 hours, coming into the office most weekends and putting in very long weekdays. Far less awful than the war stories many of my colleagues in the industry have suffered through, but we get to make games, which theoretically is something we want to be doing.



By the time the last expansion launched my communication with the community was obviously lacking but I was relatively happy with the systems work I was able to implement, or at last as happy as any developer can be. The team and I share the sort of driving passion that tends to carry us through the rough work days. So for all the anonymous negativity that gets projected at the team and company, we still derive fulfillment from what we do. We get to work on EverQuest, that's a big deal, it's something important and meaningful to us.



Unfortunately for our team EverQuest does not exist in a vacuum here. So when it came time for bonuses, which traditionally account for 15-20% of my annual pay, despite year over year strong performance from a passionate and consistently engaged community, I took a 7% pay cut from the previous year. Granted I remained employed, while a lot of incredibly talented and equally hard working people, through no fault of their own, did not.



That financial stress would have been fine if not for my banal human desire for family. So while working myself ragged so that I could be proud of my work I put an unfair burden on my fiance because I was never at home to help care for the puppy we adopted; or more importantly, be a partner to her.



So when I took stock of the important things in life I realized that sacrificing everything outside of work for the sake of pride and polish simply isn't sustainable, which hurt me a lot. I am someone who takes considerable pride in my work. I wear that Norrathian Martyr badge proudly. I was 12 years old when I started playing and have dedicated nearly all of my life to EverQuest since, first as a player and now as a developer. So to see the sum total of that dedication result in yet another year that I struggle to provide for the ones I love, it did some considerable damage to my motivation to give more than can be expected to keep the ship afloat.



After that revelation, I've striven to be a better human being. Foremost by being home on time to walk our dog in the evening so that my incredibly patient and understanding fiance doesn't have to ask at 11pm whether I'll be home for dinner or not. It wasn't feasible to go beyond the hours scheduled for AA development given the enormity of the engineering workload the team has slogged through this year.



So I more than fully understand the community's disappointment with the scope of AA development and while my post count has decreased substantially from earlier years I do honestly read just about everything posted here on the forums. My ever-expanding to-do list (in bullet point format) is 21 pages long.





Class AAs?

With the time that was available I made the decision that the more important part of AAs to get finished were passive ability upgrades. These take considerably less time than the activated abilities both because they're shared between more classes and because there is less spell implementation, which takes considerable time given the lack of tools to expedite the process.



Within the 30% of my work-year that comprises design work I also had to complete the implementation of achievements and their rewards, serve as a knowledge-base for all the strange arcana that defines how any-and-everything gets implemented, and I'm currently scrambling to ensure the design work for the faction window that the engineering team and I are putting the final touches on now will get done in time for launch.





More later?

I don't expect that to fit into the current schedule. The design team is already working on about 3 major initiatives for next year and the programming team on several more than that; much of which is mandatory behind-the-scenes efforts to fix services like the login servers, character data, stability issues, etc.



I want to be able to say that the EverQuest team is aware of community sentiment. We want to be able to do more for you but I feel there's a misconception on the size and scope of things. I would strongly encourage everyone to peruse the current credits and understand that the scope of things that get put into a release are done by people with the titles "Artist", "Designer", "Programmer".



This is not in any way meant to belittle the efforts of all the other shared services people that contribute to the game, but with 4.5 artists, 5.3 4.3 designers, and 5.7 4.7 programmers, there is only so much that is humanly possible. Not to mention the fact that the EverQuest team has been continually begging management for 2 additional content designers for multiple years to no avail.





So?

So that's the behind the curtains view of why AAs look like they are. I certainly wish I could paint a better picture but I feel like I owe you, the community that has given me so much, some sort of explanation. Please see TLDR version if you skipped this essay.
 
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YttriumF

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Bros ... thinking seriously about the lifetime sub ...
 
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Elidroth

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That post from Chris was exactly my feelings when I was on the team as well. Unless people have actually worked on the game, they simply can't grasp the level of work required to do ANYTHING within it.. Add that to the ridiculously small team EQ was given, and the amount of work we were expected to generate, it became increasingly hard to keep quiet about it to the players and just keep the positive face.. It also didn't help that the math for our royalties was NEVER explained to us, and we had no clue what it would be, ever. Even if we had an amazing quarter, the royalty bonuses never seemed to match up. Likely because so much of it was funneled into EQN/Landmark bullshit. But back to Chris' story, I'm actually surprised he hasn't had a breakdown.. The level of work he put in was INSANE. Even when I was working 12-14 hour days, he was there before me, and would leave long after I did. All because we were unwilling to let quality suffer (as best we could). Literally ALL of the team was this way. There were more than a few days where I'd come into work at 8-9am, and our lead programmer was wearing the same clothes as the day before, because she hadn't gone home.

Before I left, I was the systems lead, responsible for ALL AA creation, as well as how AA, Spells, and Itemization all fit together. I was also expected to generate a lot of content, including one expansion where I did all that, and roughly 75% of the raid creation as well. 15 hour work days were not uncommon in the months leading up to an expansion launch. Couple that to upper management (higher up than our producer or EQ Creative Director) refusing to give us any more resources and it became really painful for the team in general. At one point we were generating a large percentage of the incoming revenue, which never seemed to find its way back into our development resources..
 
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Vanessa

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E Elidroth I know who you mean when you keep saying Ponytail (LoL, I can picture his shit-eating grin whilst on stage right now) but where is he now?

Also, you never worked under Smed did you?
 
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I think the basic question is: the eq IP, should it find its niche or should it try to become whatever is happening at the cutting edge?

If the former, that is a valid market, but it is all about how you execute that goal. If the latter, I think this is way harder, because the IP is already quaint to begin with, and even predicting where the volatile market of what is happening now, is dicey through and through.

But option one is still hard to figure. How can you justify even modest capital investment in this franchise? I would not want to have to make that case.
 

Elidroth

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E Elidroth I know who you mean when you keep saying Ponytail (LoL, I can picture his shit-eating grin whilst on stage right now) but where is he now?

Also, you never worked under Smed did you?

Ponytail is pretending to be some involved in the VR world, but in reality it's nothing but a webpage.. His "tech director" is a Sr Programmer at Amazon Games..

I haven't worked DIRECTLY under Smed, but I attended business meetings with him as an EQ lead.. We had a couple marketing people who were masters of the smoke and mirrors bullshit, and I remember one when I kept asking how this gigantic outlay of money was going to actually benefit the company, and all I kept getting was, "we're still going over the data on that". Like we actually spent money hiring a Prince impersonator to go to various online news sites when we started the throwback servers. I simply asked the question, "How is this going to actually generate game revenue?" and they couldn't answer me. Smed then asked me if I had any suggestions on what to do with EQ, to which I responded, start investing in the game again. Give us the resources to actually fix some of the gigantic problems that are looming, and then let us do something to make content generation better. When Ponytail tried to jump in and interrupt me, Smed stared him down and said, "I'm asking HIS opinion right now, not yours!". I wish you could have seen Ponytail's face at that moment, but after that he made every effort to be a dick to me, because he got his dick slapped in front of Sr management.

I know Smed gets a bit of rough treatment here (some deserved, some not), but I think he's a good leader. He loves games, and I wouldn't hesitate to work for him again. Ponytail REALLY opened his eyes to the flaw of trusting your management too much with the Landmark fuckup, although I think the whole SOEmote should have been a giant fucking waving red flag.. Dumbest idea we ever sunk money into.. As if anyone in MMOs gives a shit about other PC's expressions in game.

Best example of Ponytail's leadership style was a monthly EQ team meeting.. We had polled the players and asked them the biggest things they'd like us to fix or add to the game for the next expansion as a feature list. They gave some great feedback and we put the list together. When we took that list to Ponytail, he got really angry and asked, "Are you people stupid or what?"

Then he got fired a couple weeks later, we implemented the ideas we wanted to do in the first place, and the players LOVED it. It was that same meeting when he actually asked me what we use to make cutscenes in EQ.. I asked if he'd ever actually played the game? He says, "Of course!", and I replied, "Where have you EVER seen a cutscene in this game?", at which point he suddenly had another meeting to go to. Dude was a total sham.. He's one of 3 people I would NEVER work with again, ever, in any way.
 
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iannis

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Some kind of a way to reuse old zones seems like it would be practical design. And good for the playerbase. You wouldn't want 100%, but there's a percentage.

I can't even imagine the sprawl that is EQ these days. They've been pushing 2 xpacs a year for 18 years? At least 5 zones per xpac? I quit early, in SoL, and the early xpacs had more than 5, but I have to assume that began to come down later. 100 zones, and that's just xpac zones?

Can't be. Some of those xpacs had to be zoneless or complete reworks of existing zones. I remember they dicked with Nro/Freeport/Commonlands. That must have been a full xpac. And it would have reduced the zone count.

20 year old game though... that's just monstrous no matter what you do.

Edit: I think as we've aged, our opinion of Smedly has gone up. It's easy to rage against the man when you're 20. As you start to see what he was up against it's impossible to not come to some grudging respect of the guy. I think Hartsman is the only one I'd rank above him. Smedly seems like he is/was very solidly competent. Not exactly faint praise in the land of online games.
 

Tauro

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And Epic made a cool 3 BILLION with Fortnite in 2018... there simply is no reason at all to pump money into old MMOs.. better do a fucking "Battle Royale" (or just make 10) and hope for some small percentage of what Epic makes...
 

Elidroth

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I think the basic question is: the eq IP, should it find its niche or should it try to become whatever is happening at the cutting edge?

If the former, that is a valid market, but it is all about how you execute that goal. If the latter, I think this is way harder, because the IP is already quaint to begin with, and even predicting where the volatile market of what is happening now, is dicey through and through.

But option one is still hard to figure. How can you justify even modest capital investment in this franchise? I would not want to have to make that case.


If EQ suddenly had money, programmers, and resources to burn, there is a lot that could be done to make it better. But the original game is never going anywhere beyond where it is now. It's 20+ damned years old already. I'm ok with that.

If I suddenly had the IP in hand, and could do whatever I wanted with it.. I would make a group-dependent game with a more interactive combat system. Much more reactionary to what the NPC was doing. Try to get away from the 'here's the best rotation for class' idea. The way EQ combat evolved was straight up awful. Original classes.. None of this 60+ class bullshit. Keep to the original idea that magical items were RARE and to be treasured. The skill system would be something I've wanted to do for a very long time. Like UO did, your skills get better by using them, but you can't be great/max at everything. And when things aren't used, they'd atrophy down to some base level of competency. Allow players to truly shape their character by what they do in the world, not just by selecting an item in a skill/talent tree.

Realizing I'm limiting the audience, I'd still go with the idea that all content is NOT guaranteed to you. Being good at something, and playing with people who are also good at something, should entitle you to see/do better things. There should be plenty of content and lore to see as a casual player, but the really really special stuff would absolutely be locked behind hard content. Servers would be set up in such a way where you can have the WoW-ish experience where you get mini-maps, quest icons, etc.. but also some special servers where all that stuff is turned off. You'd have to actually explore the world and discover things. Very little if any "fast travel" in these servers. Something to make the world feel BIG again. Death would have penalties, and not just a 2 minute run back to your corpse. I'd really try to bring back the original FEEL of EQ with modern tech and an updated gameplay style.. Ideally with as little instancing as possible to keep everything/everyone in the world together.

It might fall flat on its face. It might not.. I just know that if the MMO genre is to go anywhere past WoW, people are going to have to be willing to experiment with truly new ideas, and risk failure. WoW made developers LESS creative IMO.. people retreated into the "Just make it like WoW" mentality, and so we got a bunch of clones that held people's interests for about a week. The genre needs to evolve in a big way. Somehow. People need to take some big risks to go forward.

Pipe-dream, I know...
 
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