DOOM

Utnayan · Jan 3, 2017

Not really.

If the game would have launched at $29.99, the price where it should have been at from launch, I wouldn't have an issue with it. Nor would I have an issue with it when it's obvious the game suffered immense failure in development and what was patched together is what was patched together, but then to pitch it with a spin that, "It brings us back to the days of GLORIOUS SHOOTING MECHANICS" when those shooting mechanics have been standardized on since 1994? It wasn't only a giant leap back for the Doom IP, it was a giant leap backward for consumer IQ when they fell for it. Free to play FPS games have better content than this thing. Maybe my opinion will change the more I go into it (If I can stay awake) but there are plenty of other games from the latest Steam sale worth a lot more my time. I'll throw another 1-2 hours into it. But as of right now, this is an overpriced patchwork turd pitched to people with a lot of low expectations if this is the opinion they hold too. And lowers the bar 10 fold for the entire FPS genre if more AAA publishers already jump on the low effort bandwagon than we have already seen in the last 3 years.

TJT · Jan 3, 2017

Utnayan said:
Yes. Let's shit out a featureless lack of depth crap fest to unsuspecting consumers and then try to justify it by saying, "Hey guys! It's just like 1992 when the entire genre was just emerging and we had no clue what the hell to do much less any power to do it with. Welp, we just fucked the pooch on the last 7 years so we hired Levelord to design some maps while taking a deuce. Welcome to back to basic game play mechanics without any features or depth to the game what so ever while we erase the last 25 years of advancement in the genre because we are clueless hacks who needed to recoup costs and you idiots bought into it"

I get why they did it. To viral market it as such and watching some more than gullible sheep buy into it is hilarious to the point of Sean Murray absurdity. Good on Bethesda for (Not) getting their cash back but attempting anyway with a hack launch of a popular IP with shit multiplayer? It's a business after all.

What are you saying? DOOM returned a great deal of complexity to level design in FPS that has been absent for the past ten years or so. Some people like hunting for secrets and preferred the fast paced (unrealistic) action of Tribes/Doom/etc. DOOM even has a cool story and the character exposition is clever if you're actually looking for it. That being that your character the Doom Guy doesn't give a shit about the story going on at all, even though there is one. Clever jabs about the company totally into it with demons asking for volunteers to become revenants and requesting employees to just lay down and die if a demon attacks them lol.

But you don't have follow it at all because the game is primarily about fucking up demons, dodging missiles and listening to metal.

What do you mean by depth? Aiming down iron sights and crouching behind cover? I mean this argument has been everywhere the past few years its like you're living under a rock about it.

TJT · Jan 3, 2017

Utnayan

Utnayan · Jan 3, 2017

TJT said:
What are you saying? DOOM returned a great deal of complexity to level design in FPS that has been absent for the past ten years or so.

Like what? Z-Axis map editing without being able to find your check point?

Some people like hunting for secrets and preferred the fast paced (unrealistic) action of Tribes/Doom/etc.

Understandable. But these are also MUCH easier to develop and produce. Which is why you received this game in the first place. Where was the price cut as a result of lower development costs? There wasn't one because of 7 years spent not making anything and revamping assets to shit out a game in a year and a half because if it bombed, it bombed, and if they made any money, it didn't take long to shit out and they recouped costs. Nothing you see in this game was actually planned. It was a decision based on how fast can we get a game out and then let's let marketing handle how to conduct the social experiment in getting suckers to defend it.

DOOM even has a cool story and the character exposition is clever if you're actually looking for it. That being that your character the Doom Guy doesn't give a shit about the story going on at all, even though there is one. Clever jabs about the company totally into it with demons asking for volunteers to become revenants and requesting employees to just lay down and die if a demon attacks them lol.

Did you just say Doom has a great story in that the character doesn't give a shit about the story? That's the same double talk I saw in the grassroots marketing campaign to sell "Go back to the old days of FPS games!" to the masses.

But you don't have follow it at all because the game is primarily about fucking up demons, dodging missiles and listening to metal.

That's because there is no story. Not even admitting that is showing some inherent bias.

What do you mean by depth? Aiming down iron sights and crouching behind cover? I mean this argument has been everywhere the past few years its like you're living under a rock about it.

Ever play Borderlands 2? Here. In case you haven't. Here is the depth I am talking about.

Borderland 2 Character Builds and Progression Guide'

And Christ, Gearbox developed that game in less than 18 months. And I hate Randy Pitchford with a passion.

TJT · Jan 3, 2017

Utnayan

I am not sure how to explain this kind of character exposition to you its intentionally designed to be very simple and direct. If you don't understand it I don't know what to say.

The story going on around you is generic because the game is about killing demons. Its generic but that doesn't mean it is terrible. Your character, the Doom Guy, gives a shit about nothing else at all in any way. You see this when he completely ignores Dr. Samuels every single time the dude calls him and does the exact opposite of requested multiple times.

For example. You're dismantling the power system thing and the Dr calls your ass and says how to carefully dismantle it so it can be used again. Doom Guy pauses for a moment then smashes the thing to pieces. This is clever because DOOM is, again, about killing fucking demons so Doom Guy only cares about killing demons. There's also tons of good and totally optional lore (because DOOM is about killing demons) and actually hilarious bits about how far gone the company is.

And yes. I also enjoyed Borderlands 1 and 2.

Jim can probably explain it better than I can:

Utnayan · Jan 3, 2017

TJT , I get what you are saying. How in the hell is that a good story? If anything, I am laughing at that example (With you, not at you) because I know that the developers of this game shat together something and were laughing at it as they wrote it.

TJT · Jan 3, 2017

Utnayan said:
TJT , I get what you are saying. How in the hell is that a good story? If anything, I am laughing at that example (With you, not at you) because I know that the developers of this game shat together something and were laughing at it as they wrote it.

That's the point. Doom is about killing demons. I found this kind of character refreshing compared to the more common brooding FPS character of late.

The "goodness" of its story is that it doesn't try to be anything other than what Doom is and does so in a clever way.

The codex entries themselves are actually good and interesting if you like reading such things. Which I do. The writers dev process was linked awhile back and they couldn't think of anything that wasn't totally stupid until they just said, "hey, what if the company is totally full on in the bag for Hell already?" Then it goes from there. They were laughing while writing it... intentionally because it is fucking funny.

Recruitment videos for volunteers to become the rocket launcher skeleton guys in game? Then the codex entry says how that requires a super horrific amount of torture? That shit is hilarious dude.

Utnayan · Jan 3, 2017

We will agree to disagree on that. Game stories should be told through game play and in-game moments. Not through cheap ass gimmicks like Codex's or worse, what Destiny did with Grimoire cards forcing people out of the game to a web site.

With that said, no wonder why the multiplayer is shit. Rich Vogel's company Battle Cry Studios had a major part in it.

Amzin · Jan 3, 2017

Stories being told in-game is fine when that's a major part of the game. If your game is supposed to appeal to action-murder-bots, forcing them to sit through dialogue is probably not a wise choice, and making it optional (as in Doom) is a fine approach. I appreciated the lore for what it was, DOOMguy being the last alien knight-guardian thing of a super powerful order that got fucked by corruption because that's how demons win, not through their own inherent power, was interesting at least. Also explains why DOOMguy is essentially anti-demon-incarnate (demons are empowered by the wraith energy they corrupted, DOOMguy is the last of the knights that used to wield that energy, DOOMguy kills demon -> steals energy, multiply by 1,000 or whatever).

The level design is certainly better than your GoWs but I would argue not better than CoD:BLOPS 3 for example... BLOPS 3 had alternative routes beyond secret hunting whereas DOOM doesn't. But DOOM fight rooms are fun and allow you to fly around and murder in your own way even if variety is limited to just whatever your favorite weapons are. People cite oldschool FPS for level design but honestly, endless corridors of largely pointless rooms with 2-3 enemies scattered around isn't particularly exhilarating either.

I disagree with the comparison to BL2 though. BL2 is basically FPS Diablo (and plays very much more like ARPG than FPS), DOOM is an FPS... FPS. Gameplay in BL2 amounts to picking your skills correctly and standing there pushing your CDs while holding shoot down. The writing in BL2 is no better or worse than DOOM, although there is MORE of it. If you want a good modern baseline FPS, you want interesting gunplay focused on moving, aiming, gun management, and interesting enemies / arenas.

Caliane · Jan 3, 2017

Amzin said:
Stories being told in-game is fine when that's a major part of the game. If your game is supposed to appeal to action-murder-bots, forcing them to sit through dialogue is probably not a wise choice, and making it optional (as in Doom) is a fine approach. I appreciated the lore for what it was, DOOMguy being the last alien knight-guardian thing of a super powerful order that got fucked by corruption because that's how demons win, not through their own inherent power, was interesting at least. Also explains why DOOMguy is essentially anti-demon-incarnate (demons are empowered by the wraith energy they corrupted, DOOMguy is the last of the knights that used to wield that energy, DOOMguy kills demon -> steals energy, multiply by 1,000 or whatever).

The level design is certainly better than your GoWs but I would argue not better than CoD:BLOPS 3 for example... BLOPS 3 had alternative routes beyond secret hunting whereas DOOM doesn't. But DOOM fight rooms are fun and allow you to fly around and murder in your own way even if variety is limited to just whatever your favorite weapons are. People cite oldschool FPS for level design but honestly, endless corridors of largely pointless rooms with 2-3 enemies scattered around isn't particularly exhilarating either.

I disagree with the comparison to BL2 though. BL2 is basically FPS Diablo (and plays very much more like ARPG than FPS), DOOM is an FPS... FPS. Gameplay in BL2 amounts to picking your skills correctly and standing there pushing your CDs while holding shoot down. The writing in BL2 is no better or worse than DOOM, although there is MORE of it. If you want a good modern baseline FPS, you want interesting gunplay focused on moving, aiming, gun management, and interesting enemies / arenas.

yes this right. was going to make a post myself noting some of this. the BL2 comparison of skills. hell no... I like BL2 well enough, but that really is the exact opposite of Doom. run and gun, and lots of guns, with little/no skills.
Doom got it right. many guns. mods on guns effectively increasing the number of guns, without adding more hotkeys etc.

Doom(2016) IS a bit more corridor shooter then it should be. This should not be forgotten. there is only a couple maps that open up into classic Doom/quake style maze.
Argent tower map is the only one that really stands out imho. Fight rooms are not very Doom, as noted they are Quake 3 influenced. which I enjoyed personally.

Doomguy is not one of those aliens btw. Doomguy is the doommarine from the original games.
The plotline is a hyboriean/cyclical timeline. Worlds are consumed and corrupted into demon worlds, and new alternate timeline worlds are created. 1st age, 2nd age, etc.
Doomguy kicks demon ass. (Demons say he is gifted with armor from an Angel) Is trapped by dropping a mountain on him. They can't kill him. Even after separating him from his armor. They entomb him, and take over his world presumably. And of course this game starts in a new age, where time has mostly repeated itself, but slightly different.
So, same Doomguy as before, but he survived the death and rebirth of the universe essentially.

Utnayan · Jan 3, 2017

I'll play it more than the hour or so I have played so far and see if it picks up at all. When does it pick up to use all these guns and mods? So far I have found one mod for my shotgun, can't double jump, etc. Maybe that is where I am hung up because so far this is boring as all get out.

Caliane · Jan 3, 2017

Unlocks are all pretty spread out through the game, in terms of the actual hidden items.

I found the most enjoyable way to earn the statpoints for unlocking weapon upgrades to play through a level normal. then immediately after finishing it, go back and play it again to do the challenges/secrets missed.

I don't remember atm how far double jump is. 1/3rd of the way in?

Noodleface · Jan 3, 2017

Utnayan said:
I'll play it more than the hour or so I have played so far and see if it picks up at all. When does it pick up to use all these guns and mods? So far I have found one mod for my shotgun, can't double jump, etc. Maybe that is where I am hung up because so far this is boring as all get out.

You gotta step back and just play. Get out of your head worrying about mods and stuff, it all happens pretty organically. Try not to think about how it is corridor then room fight for the whole game and just focus on blowing shit up.

To me what I found most enjoyable was they didn't add in all fancy features and stories, they recreated the original games with a much more cerebral play style. The gunplay and mechanics are very good feeling and you can definitely tell it plays better than almost every other pc fps.

If you look for too much from this game you won't enjoy it. If you just keep plowing through its an enjoyable experience. One of my favorite games last year.

TJT · Jan 3, 2017

Seriously. Ignore everything else.

Sit back rock out to quality metal and fuck up demon scum. God damn FPS bliss.

Evernothing · Jan 3, 2017

Utnayan said:
I'll play it more than the hour or so I have played so far and see if it picks up at all. When does it pick up to use all these guns and mods? So far I have found one mod for my shotgun, can't double jump, etc. Maybe that is where I am hung up because so far this is boring as all get out.

You can find a secret on pretty much every level to pick up the next weapon a level early.

Noodleface · Jan 3, 2017

TJT said:
Seriously. Ignore everything else.

Sit back rock out to quality metal and fuck up demon scum. God damn FPS bliss.

Yep. Some rooms get intense later and when Id clear them I'd just squint my eyes, say fuck yeah, and raise my devil horns

Adebisi · Jan 3, 2017

If a game tries to slap me with a heavy story before letting me get into game play, I'm instantly bored. At that point is an uphill battle for me to get past an hour played. I tried so sooo hard to finish ME1 but couldn't do it. So bored.

Same thing with ambitious control tutorials. Just give me movement and fire ffs.

DOOM is my kinda game. Wake up on table and kill everything in site.

moontayle · Jan 4, 2017

Adebisi said:
If a game tries to slap me with a heavy story before letting me get into game play, I'm instantly bored. At that point is an uphill battle for me to get past an hour played. I tried so sooo hard to finish ME1 but couldn't do it. So bored.

Same thing with ambitious control tutorials. Just give me movement and fire ffs.

DOOM is my kinda game. Wake up on table and kill everything in site.

The one video linked previously talks about this. The story was the last thing they settled on because they felt they needed something even if it was shallow. Eventually they decided to embrace the lunacy of fighting demons, had the corporation go all in, and kept the story as something you experience as you play without taking you away from the action for very long.

This game is a far cry from Doom 3, which tried too hard to be dark and gritty and to fit with the CoDs of the world. It's exactly what it should be. Fast, frenetic, gory (seriously, one of the glory kills is ripping a dude's arm off then beating him with it), and just fucked up in general. I'm only on to the 3rd stage (went back to 100% the 2nd) and I can't wait to keep going.

Amzin · Jan 4, 2017

The biggest issue with the game for me was it took like 3-4 levels for the combat to become interesting. The tutorial is effectively like 90 minutes long and kinda boring compared to how the rest of the game plays out. They really could have trimmed those first few levels and packed in more guns/upgrades a lot sooner. Even going in as not-Ut I found the beginning of the game really disappointing and slow and if I replayed it I would want to skip those levels.

Caliane said:
Doomguy is not one of those aliens btw. Doomguy is the doommarine from the original games.
The plotline is a hyboriean/cyclical timeline. Worlds are consumed and corrupted into demon worlds, and new alternate timeline worlds are created. 1st age, 2nd age, etc.
Doomguy kicks demon ass. (Demons say he is gifted with armor from an Angel) Is trapped by dropping a mountain on him. They can't kill him. Even after separating him from his armor. They entomb him, and take over his world presumably. And of course this game starts in a new age, where time has mostly repeated itself, but slightly different.
So, same Doomguy as before, but he survived the death and rebirth of the universe essentially.

I dunno, I got a very different read on it based on the demon-codex thingies in hell and the fact the Nightwraithhawk-whatever guys were appearing to you and guiding you along, along with the timeline based on those codex terminals. That doesn't actually exclude him from being the original Doom marine, necessarily, although the original was supposed to be an actual human marine so maybe it does conflict. But based on the reading in game, hell fights with wraith planet -> is getting defeating -> corrupts one of the wraith priests -> everything goes fuckwise and demons get access to wraith energy / power -> mysterious warrior (Doomguy) shows up and terrorizes hell and is unstoppable -> get entombed -> gets woken up -> goes to destroy wraiths and continue terrorizing hell and gets assisted by the wraith knight guys. I like that interpretation more than "he's just some random human stuck in an infinite loop of the universe" because wrathful alien knight seems nifty to me

Funkor · Jan 4, 2017

At the end of the day, doomguy just wanted to rip and tear.

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