DOTA 2

You have to download them through the client and it contains spoilers, at least I ran into them when I tried to do it this morning :-/

Alliance deserved the trophy but that last game was indeed shit. It was so anti-climactic and no one wants to watch boring throne PVE races than actual hero fights which what NP tends to evolved the game into. Whoever has NP has an inherent rosh advantage end game because you have to decide between rosh or rax and often you lose both because at that point you must decide almost instantaneously.

Remove rosh.

http://www.joindota.com/en/vods

THey will probably appear there later. Just don't glance at the sidebar for scores

Make Furion's TP start CD when he starts channeling it, like a TP scroll, that's all he needs, but I don't think we will see any changes, maybe with some minor number alterations. Overall I don't think there should be any sweeping changes like last year, maybe nerf bat or chen a bit. The other mechanic is maybe limit number of sentries you can buy at the start, Alliance going "fuck yo' jungle" is kind of weird. Well played by Alliance, I don't think anyone can contest that they didn't deserve it, I mean they even outfarmed the chinese, a feat not even Navi could pull off.

Sutekh_sl said:

They've been in the game since Dota1 and if valve wanted to fix it they would have by now. Kind of unrelated to balance of a hero.

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chen fountain hook did not exist in dota 1

Also when did Alliance outfarm chinese? Loda was one of the weaker carries out of the top 6 or so teams in my opinion

The reason that NP is getting all kinds of hate is because NP wasn't used that way in the whole tournament. Split pushing is one thing but when you can barely, if at all, take team fights and you're only way to win is to split push it just cheapens the victory. Alliance had been pretty dominate in most of their games so they did not need abuse that.

No idea how people think that is exciting to watch. I would much rather watch team fights, Rosh fights, and ganking instead of a team avoiding team fights and just pushing towers uncontested. If you can say the ending of Game 5 was great then you don't watch a lot of Dota or you're an Alliance fan and just happy they won.

The reason its not fair is because NP can just TP everywhere almost all the time. At least Wisp has to leave after so many seconds. Nerf NP's damage or scaling somehow or the CD on his tp. Though that would break him, maybe there would be better ways to make his just less effective instead of completely killing him off.

Alliance definitely deserved to win and so did Navi. Alliance with the most consistent play and Navi with the most exciting to watch games. Just sad to see the last game come down to the most boring kind of Dota to watch.

niss_sl said:

Alliance deserved the trophy but that last game was indeed shit. It was so anti-climactic and no one wants to watch boring throne PVE races than actual hero fights which what NP tends to evolved the game into. Whoever has NP has an inherent rosh advantage end game because you have to decide between rosh or rax and often you lose both because at that point you must decide almost instantaneously.

Remove rosh.

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That game had 60 kills, a base race, back forth gold advantages? What the fuck more could you want? Base races are some of the most intense points of this competition. The one between LGD and Alliance, the one between Liquid and LGD were just as good. The TI3 couldn't have ened in a more intense moment. What would you rather have, 2 team fights that decide the game and have boring seiges where teams don't want to lose their advtange so they play really safe. Or something extremely intense and as close as that last game. You guys don't know good Dota it seems.

About the Furion thing. Let me preface this by I do think Furion's tp is broken. I've thought that since I first came into Dota. However, people calling split pushing rat dota and should be balanced around I feel don't like strategy in their games. Without split pushing, dota becomes a game of team fights only. With split pushing, it creates an entire chess battlefield in which commanders must learn to choose which pieces they place where. Dota becomes more about decision making with split pushing. We saw that in the last game of TI3. Had Navi broken off, they would have had a much better shot of winning. I think their decision in racing both a Furion, AND a wisp/CK in two lanes was a horrible decision. They decided to trade 2 lanes for one. It made no sense at the time, especially with their lineup. That is where they lost it.

Also, Sutekh, the way you are arguing leads me to believe you think Navi lost at the draft. Which I might agree with. It's what lost them TI2, they got outdrafted in their last game against IG.

I would be happy even if they just put his port and TP scrolls on the same cooldown. I find it to be kinda horseshit they aren't.

DeLLy_sl said:

The reason that NP is getting all kinds of hate is because NP wasn't used that way in the whole tournament. Split pushing is one thing but when you can barely, if at all, take team fights and you're only way to win is to split push it just cheapens the victory. Alliance had been pretty dominate in most of their games so they did not need abuse that.

No idea how people think that is exciting to watch. I would much rather watch team fights, Rosh fights, and ganking instead of a team avoiding team fights and just pushing towers uncontested. If you can say the ending of Game 5 was great then you don't watch a lot of Dota or you're an Alliance fan and just happy they won.

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Is that why split pushing and base races had the loudest and most exiting moments in TI? Calling that victory cheapened at all is such an overstatement. They did what they needed to in order to win. You sound like the kind of guy that complains about snipers in FPS.

Believe me, I was rooting for Navi. I really wanted them to win, just so they would win against a wisp/ck in the grand finals. However, they made some big mistakes in their grand scheme of things. Alliance even said their game plan in an interview. Kills mean nothing, base means everything. This isn't deathmatch. Team fights and rosh aren't suppose to decide games. The throne decides games. Once again, I'm not defending NP. I think he is completely broken. But this isn't like SF or MvC where you are forced to play against cheap ass shit. Navi could have easily banned out of NP and won.

I did some thinking on what I'd tinker with, feel free to tell me how stupid I am:

NP - teleport and treants, teleport should be riskier to use and treants should be easier to kill, so you could nerf their move speed so it's harder to block camps at the start, maybe nerf their armor/hp/building damage, but I'm not sure how to do that without directly affecting his jungling from lvl 1, so it's probably better if you just make them slower.

Batrider - turn speed/movement speed at lower levels, or just make him harder to lane in mid, since right now he doesn't really have a weak matchup, except for traditional bullshit in the form of OD. Maybe change firefly so each patch of fire only lasts 10 seconds instead of until firefly ends, nerfing napalm levels 1-3 could also be an option.

Visage - She effectively replaced followup stunners in trilanes, like Lina or Leshrac, because she does way more damage especially when your carry gets a few hits in. Nerfing damage per soul by like 5 would probably be enough. Familiars should start taking damage from magical projectiles like arrow and hook (especially since it's pure damage), right now it's a bit silly.

Alchemist - Rage is the obvious target, even if it has been nerfed once already. Removing AoE from concoction would be another big nerf so he doesn't combo so well with darkseer/magnus. Greed should be left untouched, because you have several ways to build him right now and that's great.

Darkseer - This purple smurf has been left untouched for so long, I'd be happy to not see him picked/banned every single game

Chen - Probably untouched, since like 5 people in the whole world can play him to the full potential, just like Ench.

Wisp - First ban/pick until you hit relocate, you could remove all her other spells and she would be still picked just for that. Maybe tether doesn't stun when you relocated ?

Naga - Net range scales with level ala SK, that should be enough.

It was just frutstrating to watch as a NaVi-fan. But they have themselves to blame for getting an interrupt on 3 TPs. Oh well, Alliance played very well and their teamfights were really scary at times.

Also it was nice to see Xboct playing good and actually playing seriously.

You should be happy Navi lucked into 2nd place instead of be upset they didn't win. They were the 4th best team in the top 4.

bayr_sl said:

You should be happy Navi lucked into 2nd place instead of be upset they didn't win. They were the 4th best team in the top 4.

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That must be why they ended second. Bulldog's RNG on bear also doesn't exist apparently.

Well in MvC3 I hate ChrisG for his Morrigan. Sure you can win that way, but its lame and people will dislike him for it.

Whatever you want to say about the strategy is fine, it was boring to watch regardless. The only reason it was hyped up is because Alliance had been losing and it looked like they would lose, then all of a sudden NP gonna NP.

And thanks for attacking my FPS character, snipers are only bad if they used AWP and body shot you.

I was very surprised Puppey never picked Funn1k's clinkz in the grand final since Bulldog had Prophet almost every game. Funn1k always plays better when he has very aggressive heroes.

bayr_sl said:

You should be happy Navi lucked into 2nd place instead of be upset they didn't win. They were the 4th best team in the top 4.

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Yeah totally all luck. 3 years in a row wortha luck.

At least Navi aren't bitches when they lose.

xzi_sl said:

Yeah totally all luck. 3 years in a row wortha luck.

At least Navi aren't bitches when they lose.

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Why do navi fans constantly make up shit like this? Who said anything about theme being poor in the past or not good right now? 4th best at Ti3 is not an insult, you people really are delusional.

Game 1http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti/c/2735516

Game 2http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti/c/2735888

Game 3http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti/c/2736124

Game 4http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti/c/2736290

Game 5http://www.twitch.tv/dota2ti/c/2736487

Please leave all discussion of the matches to the other thread to try to keep this spoiler free for those interested.

Its not just Alliance that is known to split push, every team does it. It just so happened to turn the tide in a losing match in game 5 of the biggest tournament. The community had already given it a bad name.

Admiral Bulldog is an amazing player, but he just so happens to be known for the 2 most annoying heroes, NP and LD.

bayr_sl said:

Why do navi fans constantly make up shit like this? Who said anything about theme being poor in the past or not good right now? 4th best at Ti3 is not an insult, you people really are delusional.

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Same could go for why do people say they were the 4th best team? They got 2nd, extremely close to getting 1st. They won their group easily, they are known for comeback wins and silly strategies. They weren't 4th best after group stage, maybe opinions changed after the Chen/Pudge fountain hook incident, but until then they looked like 2nd best with a few teams close behind.

I could say TL looked like the best team, or the worst team, or the 10th best team, but there is nothing to support it. Just like what you said about NaVi, which is probably why Xzi responded the way he did.