DOTA 2

Brando_sl said:

I had been building them as PL to help with pushing, going Power Treads now but I have to adjust to the loss of healing or just say fuck it and go Boots of Travel. Might just go BoT from now on.

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Well yeah for PL and every other carries pretty much, these boots aren't good anymore. They weren't designed as carry boots though, and that's probably why they were changed to break on attacking too and not have active regen and stuff. They're support boots and pretty good support boots if you can afford to skip arcanes which not every support can unless you're getting fed levels somehow, but some can like lich, CM, venge etc.

Hmm carries that are better than lifestealer would be Ursa, Weaver, PL. Void/AM can also outcarry as usual, so can Spectre given enough time. If not carry, items that counter naix hard are Ghost Scepter and Force staff, the more you have on the team the better, he's still a melee carry so denying him kills on a target forces him to waste time moving around. He's a pretty good all around hero though so it's not like you can do a simple thing and completely fuck him up.

Obtenor_sl said:

Hmmm what? AM outcarries LS? I always thought it was the other way around, specially factoring in LS usually build to abyssal. AM can get 6 slots faster than a LS can, but I don't think he outcarries LS.

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AM will outcarry if he reaches 6items before naix(always) and given the right items. Might not win a man fight lategame, but he'll kill the enemy team faster than naix can kill him/your team. He gets trashed if you force fights earlier than that though, and depending on naix farm he'll get trashed regardless. I said "can outcarry" and not will outcarry, because it's not a guaranteed thing, same with spectre or void, both can but depending on the game might not. It's very possible for Void for example to chrono naix and not manage to kill him during the chrono, then Naix rages+abyssal void right out of the chrono and kills him while he's at low health, but assuming enough farm, void can just outright kill him during chrono then naix isn't a factor.

Naix is a great lategame but he's not super strong late and his farming tends to be a bit weak(midas helps a lot though, and so does infesting for farm), other carries assuming equal/superior farm will beat him late. With that said and I didn't mention that, Naix will tend to finish games a lot earlier. He's operational and deadly much faster than those other carries, basically get phase, drums(optional), armlet and you're good to go. Get a basher/abyssal from the kills, mkb if enemy starts stacking evasion for lategame, but basically at 20mins you're already a killing machine. In comparison the other carries I mentionned that can outcarry him are pretty much poop at that point unless insanely fed. Naix will crush them easily for the next 10-15mins. Even Weaver and PL aren't that good if they don't get a bit of space from the Naix to farm up, and if Naix gets fed towers/kills then it's gonna be over quick if he can rush an abyssal before you have proper gear.

In this case only Ursa does well, as he can crush Naix right away. There is however the factor that Ursa needs a bkb to deal with Naix's team CC, while Naix can just rage it out, so depending on team makeup, even Ursa won't do much(stuff like Rhasta or Lion fuck Ursa so hard before he gets a bkb, then you still have Bane, Enigma, Beastmaster etc). Oh on that note, those are good heroes against naix. Even with Rage, Lion can do a lot of work against Naix if he position correctly and/or have force/ghost. If you catch the naix in a cc chain and finger him, he won't be any trouble at all.

Genjiro_sl said:

6.79 should be called the pushing patch.

DK finally lost in the Ace league by a straight pushing strat from Tongfun with Luna, Pugna with nether ward, NP, and multiple necro books. Disrupter ulti with aghs that prevents BKB is also fucking nuts

I wanna see if teams add Veno in with all his buffs as well. Also Clinkz searing arrows not being stopped by magic immune seems huge

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Meh, this shit has been happening forever. When a team doesn't feel like they can win straight up, they'll gamble on a push strat for first game to get an advantage, it has a fairly high success rate if you can hide the push strat until last pick. They did well this time, it was obvious they had some push with luna and prophet, but it wasn't overwhelming, then pugna happened. And then they went necrobooks to make sure they wouldn't go late, because they knew they were way way behind burning's farm. And they still looked like they were gonna lose until that last big push where burning died with buyback on cd. Disruptor ulti agh happened way too late to really matter in this game, it is a solid buff to his endgame though, which is generally entirely countered otherwise(dmg is low/over time, can bkb out of everything), gives him a solid lategame role again, combine with his really good early/mid set and you now have a pretty good hero.

Couple teams played veno, think they all lost though. Need to put points in all the skills for him to be very good, for a support with pulling being nerfed, it's tough. If he was played mid though... It'd be scary as shit I think.

Edit: Well seems they're doing it 2 games in a row, but the pushing isn't working too well, luckily, mana ward > big aoe supports.

Yeah kotl is awful. You either want enchantress(but tongfu picked her), possibly chen, or a way to kill the necros quickly(but a lot of these were nerfed with the patch, still can diffusal them though apparently) and a bkb so you don't die in the process. OD was a good counter for example.

Issue being, I don't think it's the necros that won the game, it's Tongfu applying a solid strat and executing it well enough. Mostly I think it's that they still retained a fairly strong teamfight lineup and made sure to starve DK enough that they couldn't stomp them 5vs5. You generally beat a pushing team by farming your carry while slowing the push with 4, and once they start pushing the base it gets messy and you can generally win the teamfights since you have higher levels(less grouping) and farm is more localized(strong carry).

However in both games that didn't really happen because they also picked shit like Pugna which is atrociously good at countering certain heroes. I mean they picked Lycan after pugna(iirc), that's a fucking awful choice right there with Decrepify countering Lycan easily. DK picked a ton of big aoes too, again, against pugna. Mana ward is actually tough to kill now if you don't directly attack it, you can't send familiars(game 1) or wolves(game 2) and kill it in 1second and that's probably what they failed to realize and a big reason they lost. When your nether ward is up all fight and lich/sk/es all kill themselves just casting their normal spells, it doesn't end well. Even game1 has OD(who eventually got a bkb) and Timbersaw. There's also the fact Netherward kills your mana on top of doing the dmg so it becomes hard to keep casting the nukes, and Decrepify doesn't augment damage all that much so having tons of nukers didn't necessarily make sense. Netherward+ET spirit in range for aura? Yay you lose as much/more health than your target casting nukes and mana with it. They also drafted a 100% ranged setup in game1(well ET is melee but with spirit spam he doesn't need to be in melee range) which combined with force staff, fast meka+enchantress spirits+drain life makes it very hard to kill people, lots of kiting, spreading out without losing damage and shit like that.

I think overall game2 was an outdraft, they happened to have a lot of pushing but I don't know if that was necessarily the primary reason for their victory, it was obviously important and gave them a lot of early gold, but the gold difference wasn't even that high when they started pushing the base(I think at 30ish mins it was 2k in favor of tongfu even though they were like 4-5 towers ahead), but they also had a stronger teamfight straight up, which is very interesting from a pushing lineup vs what was drafted as obviously a teamfight lineup(lich+es+sk+sf is like wombo combo shit).