Can anyone quickly explain why Mek is core on Viper? I'm starting to understand many item builds but I'm still not sure why DOTA client advises Mek and why it is built commonly in the pro scene as well on a semi-carry.
DOTA 2
- Thread starter Bels_sl
- Start date
Do you guys generally jungle on Naix or safe lane? Is race car build still a viable build for him as well?
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
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Naix should safelane, but since pubs mostly play as greedy as possible, you have him in jungle farming. Racecar is nice, but you should always tailor your build to the game at hand, if you are the only carry and the game is heading to the late game, you will want something that hits a bit harder.
Mek is like the single most powerful item in the first 30 minutes, if you have it and the other team doesn't, you have a huge advantage in every teamfight and you can easily push after any fight without going back to the fountain.
Mek is like the single most powerful item in the first 30 minutes, if you have it and the other team doesn't, you have a huge advantage in every teamfight and you can easily push after any fight without going back to the fountain.
You need to remember in in the trench tier unranked match making so it isn't uncommon for us to have zero junglers. I figure it is better to at least go in there and utilize the jungle instead of soaking up lane XP with a partner.
So should I avoid race car if it is obvious I'm the hard carry for the game? In that case would I want to go Midas first as well?
So should I avoid race car if it is obvious I'm the hard carry for the game? In that case would I want to go Midas first as well?
Zaphid
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It depends on the match, as most stuff in dota. If you can jungle effectively and you know your lane won't suffer horribly for it, it's fine, but if you have just leeched 3 levels vs their dual lane and then decided to head into jungle, the other guy will be free food.
Midas is mostly for the xp I would say, if you can farm it up in 7-8 minutes, definitely go for it, otherwise only if you really depend on lvl 11/16 ulti, like Luna. You can get other items that speed up your farm without being almost useless vs heroes.
Kithani
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When I was in trench tier I used to think the same way that I should go in the jungle and utilize the "extra" XP for my team. In reality though I think it oftentimes ends up screwing your team indirectly because the guy that you leave alone in the lane doesn't know how to handle it and ends up getting owned harder than if you had stayed with him. You have to play a lot differently if you're soloing vs a dual lane and in lower MMR people don't always understand that, just something to think about. You might could try asking your teammate "Hey are you gonna be ok soloing or do you want me to come with you?" before heading off to jungle.
Viper can usually pick up the mek pretty quickly and the burst heal at that point in the game makes him nearly impossible to kill. Mek is also really good on razor.
With Viper's Armor passive, his EHP goes through the roof with a mek. Add to that the attack speed slow on his ult, and there's no way you can fight him 1v1. Even more is difficult, early. It also adds a great pushing ability (in that a team should push with a mek carrier) to a hero that normally has zero pushing ability.
Sutekh
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Not to mention Viper has virtually NO mana problems so he'll always have the mana for it and it provides better survivability than Vanguard, which is what some people used to build on him.
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One thing that wasn't touched on, why you build survivability in the first place. Viper does slow damage over time and the longer he's alive, the more damage he does through various means(his orb, his passive that reflects dmg and his passive that does more dmg as people get lower). He does fairly ok damage without any items early/mid and that's why you build tanky first, so he survives and gets to do his slow but steady damage over time, plus mek is a great teamfight item early on and yeah no mana problems. Razor is kinda the same, insane damage over time but needs to survive, has more mana issues but still good item and mana issues go away right after(or before) when you get a point booster for your agh. Incidentally, Viper also does that, meka into agh or sometimes pointbooster meka agh.
As for the jungle, one thing to remember is in dota, not having a jungler doesn't mean your jungle is wasted. Supports stacking constantly and pulling can make use of a good part of the jungle even without someone actively killing shit in there. Everytime you stack a camp, it's the same as having killed it, only delayed(and obviously it can get stolen). Most junglers can't even clear all camps anyway, in fact I don't think any jungler clear all camps until 20mins before they respawn, so a support who stacks a hard camp and double pull the easy+hard camp is basically doing the same job as a full dedicated jungler in terms of using the jungle gold/xp. Granted double pulling on Dire is fucking gay, so that's not as good there, nor is stacking. Fucking dire jungle is shit.
Other thing to remember is besides a few exceptions, you get more gold in lane than you do in the jungle. Exception would be Enigma and potentially Doom not sure. Enigma is the only jungler that clears fast enough that he can actually make good gold/xp out of the jungle early game. If you play Naix, you'll get more farm in a lane than in the jungle, unless the lane is way fucked(like vs an offensive trilane with only one support who's like kotl or some shit). You should only go in the jungle if it benefits your team. It's even worse if you're using the pulls to level on, that hurts your supports for no specific reason, at that point you might as well pick a real jungler or learn to jungle by cutting trees so you only get hit by a single mob in every camp, letting you do hard camps right away.
As for the jungle, one thing to remember is in dota, not having a jungler doesn't mean your jungle is wasted. Supports stacking constantly and pulling can make use of a good part of the jungle even without someone actively killing shit in there. Everytime you stack a camp, it's the same as having killed it, only delayed(and obviously it can get stolen). Most junglers can't even clear all camps anyway, in fact I don't think any jungler clear all camps until 20mins before they respawn, so a support who stacks a hard camp and double pull the easy+hard camp is basically doing the same job as a full dedicated jungler in terms of using the jungle gold/xp. Granted double pulling on Dire is fucking gay, so that's not as good there, nor is stacking. Fucking dire jungle is shit.
Other thing to remember is besides a few exceptions, you get more gold in lane than you do in the jungle. Exception would be Enigma and potentially Doom not sure. Enigma is the only jungler that clears fast enough that he can actually make good gold/xp out of the jungle early game. If you play Naix, you'll get more farm in a lane than in the jungle, unless the lane is way fucked(like vs an offensive trilane with only one support who's like kotl or some shit). You should only go in the jungle if it benefits your team. It's even worse if you're using the pulls to level on, that hurts your supports for no specific reason, at that point you might as well pick a real jungler or learn to jungle by cutting trees so you only get hit by a single mob in every camp, letting you do hard camps right away.
Speaking of which, something I've wonderered for a long time but which creep gives the most experience? when using midas, is it better to use it on ranged/melee or particular jungle creep. I always thought that the lvl5+ jungle mobs gave the most experience but never sure.
At some point (only after 25?) isn't it better to use them on the smaller creeps for maximized gold gain?
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What you midas depends on what you need and how fast you can kill the other creep. Early on you want to midas big creeps because the xp modifier is a multiplier and the bigger creeps give more xp, so you get a large boost of xp. Later on it's more efficient to midas the smaller creep since the gold is static so you get more gold from killing big guy+midas small than midas big+killing small. Xp becomes superfluous obviously once you reach 16 in comparison to gold efficiency. Also early game, it's worth it spend 20secs to get to a jungle camp to midas a big creep instead of midasing a lane creep. Obviously it's only good if you're not gonna miss on lane creeps xp/gold though, but if you have the choice don't rush using your midas.
Also midas is a lot better in shit pubs, and it's not a big deal if you don't get it like very early. A 12mins midas will still do work in shit tier because most games go 40+mins anyway(unless a moron abandons) so it'll have plenty of time to pay off. 12mins isn't even that bad in a normal game, assuming you're not getting free farm(if you are and can only get it in 12mins, you should go play bots until you can actually last hit).
Also midas is a lot better in shit pubs, and it's not a big deal if you don't get it like very early. A 12mins midas will still do work in shit tier because most games go 40+mins anyway(unless a moron abandons) so it'll have plenty of time to pay off. 12mins isn't even that bad in a normal game, assuming you're not getting free farm(if you are and can only get it in 12mins, you should go play bots until you can actually last hit).