EQ Never

Randin

Trakanon Raider
1,933
892
No, it wasn't, but I'm fine with being able to fix all your mistakes over time.

I'm not necessarily fine with swapping classes/skills anywhere/anytime. I'm curious to see how that develops. EVE makes you dock to swap ships. Guild Wars had you enter town to swap skills and companions. The ability system they're using seems like it could be a spin on GW.
There was some dude who reported out of...I think it was PAX, that the devs have backpedaled a little in that regard, now saying that they haven't yet settled on how to handle class swapping. Gives me alittlemore optimism on that particular front.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
take LOL where toon uniquness is not an issue, people play the game because they like the PvP rush or wtf
This is where I see their angle for classes (and day to day gameplay - sans PvP). I want dozens of small, hyper-specialized classes that fit an archetypal role. I don't like big rambling classes with various potential strengths like WoW's. WoW has a class system, and then an archetype system layered inside of that for some, but not all classes. It defies what I want classes to be, a role. When I advance my candidacy for an event as a paladin, you shouldn't need to know what KIND of paladin I am. You should know explicitly what paladins are for. That's the class. It does X. It doesn't do X and 6 and Queztacotl. It just does X.

Multi-classing could completely gouge what I want to see, but it might not. It might be just the appropriate amount of flavor and flexibility that I need to define something special like a warrior+dru/clr (nature knight a.k.a. paladin of tunare/karana). We'll see how it plays out, and I'm in no rush to judgement. The pendulum could swing either way on the "unique" aspect depending on execution.

You seem to be saying that because people can swap at will there isn't any unique whatever, but I don't see it that way. I see being able to swap readily giving them the freedom to make classesmoreunique. If you can become a warrior or steal a warrior ability easily, you don't need to provide all the tank archetypes with similar tools to achieve similar results to fill their role. So they can make purpose-suited, amazingly different classes while allowing players to grab the occasional crutch skill from another class to prop them up for a given situation.

Like, say the group needs root. Our whole gangbang strat for bosses was based on the druid's CC capacity and he went to sleep. Maybe his replacement, an inquisitor, could use the root from the necro since it works well with his abilities and suits the immediate needs of the group. Alternatively the group might have to dissolve or we'd be limping while we wait for a druid/necro to be available to flesh out the synergy we were achieving before. That's like a best case scenario. I don't know if SOE can achieve that or if they're even looking at it the way I am. It could go either way at this point, and a dozen ways in between.

I have very little faith in SOE to execute this correctly, but y'all are attributing things to their statements that aren't actually present. I don't think you're reading between the lines. I think you're letting prejudice color what you uncover.

That became a lot longer than I intended it to be.
frown.png
 

Conefed

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,850
1,702
On one hand I like the idea of developing only one character and leveling him in multiple classes.
On the other hand, I don't want to be forced into a situation where I must change from my preferred class.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Well if you can just steal the one ability that would otherwise force you to perform an entire swap, itcouldbe the best of both worlds.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
This is where I see their angle for classes (and day to day gameplay - sans PvP). I want dozens of small, hyper-specialized classes that fit an archetypal role.
Yeah I don't think it's going to work the way SOE thinks it will. At the end of the day, some abilities are going to be mo' betta so you'll find 90% of the people playing that base class (say Warrior for tank - hypothetically) with the odd class ability from something else to round out the character.

Again, Zehn, Grave, and I (and others maybe you as well - but those are the only two I remember) all theorycrafted pretty much the exact fucking system EQN is using (minus the max 8 hotbar and class weapon skils) on FOH back in 2008-2009. I was actually for it until I saw the light.

It's basically a bastardized skill system and like all skill systems it is completely subject to FOTM. Within a month the "best" tanking build will be known to be (example): Base Class Warrior - wielding Sword- Shield with 2 standard Warrior abilities(Hack n Slash) + Rogue Backstab + Cleric Self-Heal.

Butler tried to brush off this by saying "We can't control what guilds will want" at SOE Live but the reality is FOTM is far worse than losing a cleric due to guild drama (his big pet peeve) because FOTM means that all the bullshit about being able to flip around abilities to create different builds is just that bullshit.
 

Greyform

Bronze Knight of the Realm
431
17
Agraza, I disagree with you 98% of the time (like Zehn) but you're not stupid (like Zehn) so I don't mind arguing with you even though it's mostly pointless.. What you're missing here is that meaningful choice is necessary for "unique" characters. Yes, I know that you know that I know that no MMO character is actually unique - take any toon in any MMO and if you look around you'll find one pretty much the same race/class/level and even 90% of the same items (99% if we're talking WoW) - but this is more about the appearance (or perhaps illusion is the better term) of uniqueness versus the reality.

The direction Butler & Co. are taking EQN is removing even the illusion of uniqueness. What they're - and you're - forgetting is that people need to feel that their toons are unique to become attached to them - so removing that feeling matters for long-term gameplay. Now you can become attached to a game for different reasons besides uniqueness - take LOL where toon uniquness is not an issue, people play the game because they like the PvP rush or wtf. There are certainly people who play MMORPGS for the PvP rush but they aren't most of the people on this board, AFAIK.

TL;DR the class system sucks, not putting in racial restrictions sucks more.
BS Tad, every class has one superior build and once discovered everyone cookie cutters it. If by unique you mean that dude that does not care if his choices made him a gimp he just keeps on trucking regardless than this decision changes nothing for him.

The uniqueness you're looking for comes from the player. How aware are you? Can you not stand in the fucking fire? Can you stop mashing buttons long enough to look around and see what the hell else is going on? Two dudes playing the exact same character can yield completely different results just based on how you're able to answer those simple questions.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
The same problem plagues talent trees. It even plagues games without choices, but you don't see the accumulation of dependence on the FOTM in such a quick timespan. Any unbalanced contribution is going to become favored unless adjusted. In EQ you had no choices how your class operated, but the trinity was a big fucking deal and it took until PoP for the devs to try to address healing imbalance and late OoW to barely adjust tanking imbalance. FOTM is just a reflection of low agility on the part of the dev team. Taking 4 months to tweak an ability by 10% because everyone's using it would obviously be bad. If they fix it in two weeks, it didn't even have a full month to be the flava.

The only way to completely avoid it is to have one class with one linear progression.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
The same problem plagues talent trees.
I thought it was agreed by all that talent trees were bad? Instead of a talent tree allowing a priest to be a necro (Vanilla WoW) you should have a Priest and a Necro class.

With respect to the discussion of uniqueness - you completely missed my point. All the multiclassing BS of EQN is doing is compressing 16 unique EQ classes into 3 or 4 FOTM builds. As Ukerric noted way back when, the "trinity" will emerge - damage dealer, damage taker, support.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
I kind of explained how I would like to see their class system pan out.. I don't feel like looking for it but basically players choose to focus on becoming better at certain abilities by using them/equipping certain gear to enhance them. I used the FD ability in my example. When you get the monk class you have to seek out that ability and it's still basic.. It's up to you to improve it through using/skill/gear. It can still be exploited of course but at least when you come across an awesome FDing monk you know they put some serious work in to build that skill.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
No, I didn't miss your point tad. I responded to it fully. It was the majority of my essay above. I also responded to the possibility of FOTM problems, and how every other game regardless of its class design suffers the same problem to varying degrees.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
No, I didn't miss your point tad. I responded to it fully. It was the majority of my essay above. I also responded to the possibility of FOTM problems, and how every other game regardless of its class design suffers the same problem to varying degrees.
Okay, then please explain again how a skill-based system or equivalent (e.g. EQN's multi-classing) which will have max 4 FOTM builds is better than a class based system which has 16 unique classes. Because I don't get that from your post. -_-
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I refuse to explain how that's better. I don't think it is, and I don't think it's a plausible outcome. I'm not going to advocate for some third position for your benefit.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
I'd prefer some races never getting some of the class options, and druid and necro or paladin and sk not going together.

That said, I take no offense from that video either. It makes sense. I can deal with all classes being open to every race, if it comes with the baggage it should bring. So the statement from the video really is not the problem, and if you look at it from and objective point of view you probably even agree. If that ogre bard is as hard as an iksar that's not KoS in Surefall glade, sure go ahead. BUT I expect them to make everything so accessable, non-controversial and easy to change, that nothing ever matters and every decision you no longer like is reversible within the hour. And THAT is what's turning this game from a "play for a decade" into a "meh, good for a month".

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, and Georgeson has at times claimed to make a game where decisions matter and content is difficult to overcome. Butler and Michaels on the other hand have said nothing I'm interested in, and they call the shots.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
Okay, then please explain again how a skill-based system or equivalent (e.g. EQN's multi-classing) which will have max 4 FOTM builds is better than a class based system which has 16 unique classes. Because I don't get that from your post. -_-
Like he said, every system has that problem. Your class based system has the same 4 FOTM classes, and then 12 classes that are picked last for dodgeball.

If warrior tanking falls out of favor with the populace I have to log over to my paladin and reskill from healer to tank. Big fucking deal. There are roles, one selection of abilities will fill them best. Whether they are hardwired or flexible changes some details but in the end, you have FOTM either way.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
Like he said, every system has that problem. Your class based system has the same 4 FOTM classes, and then 12 classes that are picked last for dodgeball.

If warrior tanking falls out of favor with the populace I have to log over to my paladin and reskill from healer to tank. Big fucking deal. There are roles, one selection of abilities will fill them best. Whether they are hardwired or flexible changes some details but in the end, you have FOTM either way.
No. FOTM requires some kind of selectable skill based system (be it via Skill/Talent Trees or seperate skills) or (in the case of EQN) a skill-based system masquerading as a class based system. Don't confuse WoW talent trees with EQ character classes. Yes the trinity required warriors and clerics on raids, but for group content any tanking or healing class was acceptable.
 

Xevy

Log Wizard
9,065
4,291
No. FOTM requires some kind of selectable skill based system (be it via Skill/Talent Trees or seperate skills) or (in the case of EQN) a skill-based system masquerading as a class based system. Don't confuse WoW talent trees with EQ character classes. Yes the trinity required warriors and clerics on raids, but for group content any tanking or healing class was acceptable.
Not in the beginning. This happened when they realized SK's and Paladin's couldn't keep aggro. They added more shit and upped aggro of certain skills so they could tank. This was like SoL era. Druids and Shaman couldn't heal groups in certain areas either until they added "Druid CH" and "Shaman CH". Even still Shaman still lacked in healing for quite some time and were considered a utility 4th slot class.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,534
601
Not in the beginning. This happened when they realized SK's and Paladin's couldn't keep aggro. They added more shit and upped aggro of certain skills so they could tank. This was like SoL era. Druids and Shaman couldn't heal groups in certain areas either until they added "Druid CH" and "Shaman CH". Even still Shaman still lacked in healing for quite some time and were considered a utility 4th slot class.
Wasn't perfect, still better than FOTM skill based systems.
 

Xevy

Log Wizard
9,065
4,291
I will agree EQ had pretty decent balance for the most part. The only thing I remember was Enchanters and Shaman were the must-haves for group efficiency because of slow/haste/malaise/mez. All the DPS was pretty decently balanced. I don't recall ever picking anyone over anyone else based on class (for DPS), but usually it was based on player skill and/or gear.