EQ Never

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Felmega_sl

shitlord
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Being able to nerf single abilities without destroying whole classes is a pretty good thing. Since abilities are interchangeable, as I understand it, players could replace nerfed abilities instead of having to deal with the "reroll because Mortal Strike doesnt hit as hard due to a nerf" syndrome.

It would seem me that balance is more demanded, yet tougher to achieve, in PvP - and this is where the constant FOTM problem can really be identified.
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

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tad10_sl said:
No. FOTM requires some kind of selectable skill based system
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No. FOTM requires a relatively small (for the hardcore-18-hours-a-day-play catasses) time to get from whatever to the so-called FOTM. When your games does not support selectable skill-based system, but lets you grind from character creation to "operational" in a week or two, then you get FOTM, even if your game has hardcoded, inflexible classes. Instead of switching skills, people simply reroll whenever nerf occurs.

If you want to avoid FOTM, then you need to make the whole "getting to operational" take a very long time; much longer than it takes for the FOTM to vary. But then, you run into different problems (the catch-up problem and all its variants) which usually are detrimental to the long-term health of the game.
 
Mr Creed

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tad10_sl said:
No. FOTM requires some kind of selectable skill based system (be it via Skill/Talent Trees or seperate skills) or (in the case of EQN) a skill-based system masquerading as a class based system. Don't confuse WoW talent trees with EQ character classes. Yes the trinity required warriors and clerics on raids, but for group content any tanking or healing class was acceptable.
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Ya we are going to have to agree to disagree here because which classes were wanted and which were tolerated went back and forth during my time in EQ (2000 - 2004). WoW doesnt figure into my opinion in this regard. of course not everyone auto-kicked people for being the wrong class, but if you havent experienced snobby behaviour about which classes are acceptable and which arent then you didnt pug enough in EQ.

I do think that what they plan skill-wise is going to be a balancing nightmare and rigid classes would be MUCH easier to balance. But I want a departure from the tried and true, so I'm giving free-form multiclassing a fair shot.
 
M

Mellent_sl

shitlord
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The devs are probably hoping that with a flexible enough class system, they won't have to step in as often to nerf a certain build. Rock, paper, scissors mentality effectively. They already brought that up with their "magebane" multiclass idea.
 
F

Felmega_sl

shitlord
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Mellent_sl said:
The devs are probably hoping that with a flexible enough class system, they won't have to step in as often to nerf a certain build. Rock, paper, scissors mentality effectively. They already brought that up with their "magebane" multiclass idea.
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Right. As in, if the mage X build becomes real popular, people will build and anti-mage x class to thin the heard out. Sounds good on paper but how it will play out in reality is the question.
 
Mr Creed

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I think rigid classes are easier to balance because for the first balance check you only have to consider the class itself, so to speak. Of course you need to consider buffs from all classes.

On the other hand with the EQN multi-classing, even if it is ok with 40 classes at first, as the game matures it will become more and more nightmarish to release new, interesting classes without adding an ability that in combination suddenly wildly overpowers an old skill. Think Magic: the Gathering and the problems that game face at times.

In a video game the obvious solution is nerfing something of course, but that isnt well-received. Not sure I have that much faith in MMO balancing if consider that even with rigid, static classes the balance is often questionable. I guess it comes down to how often they have a break-out "counterbuilds wont overcome this" situation after a new class comes out.
 
Agraza

Agraza

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They could reward internal synergy like a set bonus for choosing not to deviate from your main class much, or only to deviate within your archetype, etc.
 
M

Mellent_sl

shitlord
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Agraza_sl said:
They could reward internal synergy like a set bonus for choosing not to deviate from your main class much, or only to deviate within your archetype, etc.
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True, but that kind of implies a situation where there is a jack and master of all trades. Variety of necessity in relation to different situations is the key to maintaining a balance without having to give a sheer power advantage to someone who only uses their main class's skills. Intheory, a "true warrior" would be the most effective at the role a warrior plays. Perhaps it is more balanced for a variety of situations than a very specifically built class, but that should be its strength rather than its weakness. Versatility versus specificity.

Of course, that's in theory. Can they pull this off? Possibly, but only time will tell. That doesn't mean it's flawed. MTG isn't flawed for the most part yet that game also hinges on the idea of freeform combinations.
 
Mr Creed

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MTG does punish for mixing colors though, which I would consider the class or role equivalent. You will have to deal with mana issues (no mtg example nitpicking please) that ultimately weaken you in all chosen roles, compared to the pure (single color) deck. The way I understand it is within the constraints of your chosen represented class (i.e. which mix of class ability slots like movement, defensive etc do you get) you are at the same efficiency as anyone else, regardless of using all warrior skills on the warrior chassis, or using a wild mix. The penalty is the difficulty or required time in getting all those classes so you can start mixing it up. But given their mass market appeal there is serious doubt whether that will require any effort beyond using google and running somewhere to talk to the "hidden" wizard mentor for the unlock.
 
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Mellent_sl

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Mr Creed_sl said:
MTG does punish for mixing colors though, which I would consider the class or role equivalent. You will have to deal with mana issues (no mtg example nitpicking please) that ultimately weaken you in all chosen roles, compared to the pure (single color) deck. The way I understand it is within the constraints of your chosen represented class (i.e. which mix of class ability slots like movement, defensive etc do you get) you are at the same efficiency as anyone else, regardless of using all warrior skills on the warrior chassis, or using a wild mix. The penalty is the difficulty or required time in getting all those classes so you can start mixing it up. But given their mass market appeal there is serious doubt whether that will require any effort beyond using google and running somewhere to talk to the "hidden" wizard mentor for the unlock.
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Actually I'd liken it to being geared vs not being geared, except that the MTG gear is just availability of cards. People usually don't have problems with colors if they have a shit ton of split lands, and going solely down one color is typically not even very viable due to the interactions between cards of different colors. Of course there are decks that are viable in one color or with minimal splashing, but they're typically not as prevalent as really good multicolor decks. EQN is actually very similar to this, I suppose.

If they want the system to be viable at all then I don't think anything more than finding the wizard and completing a quest chain should be necessary, but ideally those energy/mana cost penalties to multiclassing without good gear are going to be heavy enough that gear is necessary for those wicked combos, similar to how a solid manabase is required for wicked multicolor combos.
 
Mr Creed

Mr Creed

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We are talking about Mtg now! I think if they make it as easy as you describe, EQN will just end with everyone being 5Ccontrol with every spoiler. I dont know if you would want that but I dont, its the recipe to a boring meta, even if the deck itself us a blast.
 
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Mellent_sl

shitlord
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Mr Creed_sl said:
We are talking about Mtg now! I think if they make it as easy as you describe, EQN will just end with everyone being 5Ccontrol with every spoiler. I dont know if you would want that but I dont, its the recipe to a boring meta, even if the deck itself us a blast.
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Just because everyone has the possibility to play any class (edit: I should say every) doesn't mean they will or that it will be viable. Five control isfunbut its viability is very limited, much like some watered down mishmash of skills should be in EQN. Similarly, just because someone owns all five colors doesn't mean that they'll either use all five or that they'll even be able to (lands meaning gear, etc.).
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

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Agraza_sl said:
They could reward internal synergy like a set bonus for choosing not to deviate from your main class much, or only to deviate within your archetype, etc.
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There's probably going to be an intrinsic bonus in that the (common) equipment is going to favor sticking to your class skills. Remember the panel where they said "if your warrior tries to use a wizard TP in the back of the enemy then use a rogue's backstab, he won't have enough energy to chain both unless he has equipment to reduce those costs". And plate armor that has things that help wizard or rogue skills is going to be certainly much rarer than warrior-skill armor.

(that, of course, depends on crafting. If crafting is modular - ala Wildstar -, then it's not going to happen)
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

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Mr Creed_sl said:
But given their mass market appeal there is serious doubt whether that will require any effort beyond using google and running somewhere to talk to the "hidden" wizard mentor for the unlock.
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That is almost certainly going to be the case for the 8 or so "core classes" in Qeynos. Check on wiki the trainer, see how much it wants, bring it, done.

Then you're going to get the faction-based trainers which are going to require you to be on the lookout for opportunities to get faction, and after a couple hours of factioning, you'll get the 8-12 additional easy classes. And then you're going to have things like a Shadow Assassin, which requires you to be tier 5 in Rogue, Bard, and Elementalist before the trainer will consider talking to you, which takes a bit.

(personally, I expect at least 4 "prestige" classes that will require you to have obtained at least "platinum participation" in a Rallying Call, said participation stops counting once used, which does limit the speed at which classes can be acquired, and requires you to think first before you pick your first prestige because you will need to grind at least 4 rallying calls to get access to those)
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

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A lot will also depend on how the classes are parceled out. Everyone doesn't get everything at the start. Let's assume that at end of 6 months of playing, the average player will have a random 15-20 out of the 40 classes. Wouldn't that make cookie cutter pretty impossible?

Also, there are a lot of possibilities for horizontal upgrades within each class. I think of the planetside 2. You can become better at certain skills by increments. These increments don't make you into some space marine primarch, but they do give you a little bit of an edge.

What classes do I have? what weapon have I invested my time into? What role do I find myself playing with the group I play with?

All these become mitigators to the worries of a mono class
 
zzeris

zzeris

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I like the comparison to MTG honestly. The easiest and main goal of MTG players is to deal 20-30 damage depending on the relevant format. There are many different ways to accomplish this goal and many different combinations can get this done. If a person wants to play RDW the entire time they are playing the game, it is possible but they lose out on versatility, strengths of those other colors, and can sometimes just get stomped by other decks. In this game, I'm pretty sure you could stick to one class and function in a group. Will you be optimal all the time? No. Are there strengths you miss out on? Of course. Could your narrow minded focus to appease some fantasy of yours(or your weekly LLARP group) make you less desirable at times? Possibly. It's the same choice though as the one you want for players who have to stay stuck in a class they ended up not liking. Let's be hardcore right?
 
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azeth

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6Anmif4.jpg


i assume these pictures are indicative of some classes.

Pirate.... Purple-Dinosaur tamer... the usual
 
Dr Neir

Dr Neir

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Ukerric_sl said:
That is almost certainly going to be the case for the 8 or so "core classes" in Qeynos. Check on wiki the trainer, see how much it wants, bring it, done.

Then you're going to get the faction-based trainers which are going to require you to be on the lookout for opportunities to get faction, and after a couple hours of factioning, you'll get the 8-12 additional easy classes. And then you're going to have things like a Shadow Assassin, which requires you to be tier 5 in Rogue, Bard, and Elementalist before the trainer will consider talking to you, which takes a bit.

(personally, I expect at least 4 "prestige" classes that will require you to have obtained at least "platinum participation" in a Rallying Call, said participation stops counting once used, which does limit the speed at which classes can be acquired, and requires you to think first before you pick your first prestige because you will need to grind at least 4 rallying calls to get access to those)
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One of the more constructive posts in awhile. I would be expecting something similar to this if not this. This is a bit focused as comments go, something you?
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Like to hear ideas on crafting, see if it pairs with whats in my head.
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

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Dr Neir_sl said:
Like to hear ideas on crafting, see if it pairs with whats in my head.
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Well, you can't really figure out crafting until you've figured out itemization first, and we've got very little about it. The core ideas on classes, we know; the items... not so much.

All we know is that you have the usual armor+jewelry+weaponry set, those have no stats on them but effects that apply on your capabilities, and that's pretty much all. Oh, and we have racial variations, meaning a human mace will be slower but maybe hit more easily, while a dwarven one would hit harder, but crit less, or something.

I sensibly refrain from designing crafting systems these days. If you can remember or find the archives of the old forums, I did expose my ideal crafting system four or five years ago, which was basically the Broth Pot approach. The Broth Pot system is simple: open up the pot (pull UI), decide what you'll call the broth (pick item type to craft), empty your backpack in the pot, and see what comes out. There's no set recipe for an item, save that metal armor needs at least X amount of metallicity from your items, and leather would need Y amount of skin, and so on. All items you put in the forge/loom/craftbench provide various attributes that associate thematically (a red wolf pelt or a ruby enhance the strength/probability of getting a fire-related effect), and when you click craft: bingo, you get your item. Bonus points: your character has affinities (which means that Rob is known as the weaponsmith who gets fire swords easily, while Jon needs to put a ton of rubies to get a small fire resist, but give him a diamond sliver and he'll have a vorpal blade for you) which mean your recipes will not work exactly the same for the other guy.

Caveat: I doLOVEA Tale in the Desert. As one could expect.

So, ok, it's probably not going to be that. I expect more of a Wildstar-ish thing: you craft a base item (Dwarven Breastplate, Teir'dal Leather Boots, etc.) and the item has a number of slots (tier 1: 3 slots; tier 5: 10 slots) in which you sew/bolt trinkets who have specific rules (provide/consume magic flows) to activate final effects. So you take your tier 2 Dwarven Breastplate, slot in a Fire Opal (provides +9 fire magic flow), a Mithril Band (requires +7 fire/earth magic; makes your Block last 15% longer) and an Iron Spur (dissipates up to 4 magic flow; required because you still have 2 fire magic unused and that might blow up your BP in combat). You can't craft a Dwarven tier 2 unless you've crafted one tier 1 Dwarven BP and one additional tier 1 BP of any other race (taught by learning from a trainer of that race; if he wants to talk to you), and the Fire Opal, Mithril Band and Iron Spur are random drops from tier 2 and tier 1 content, while the BP itself is crafted from metal ingots purchased at the smith guildhall.
 
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