EQ Never

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I think procedural content and player customization of content is going to be a focus point for the future of the industry, but generating everything procedurally in a plausible way is a challenge that hasn't been overcome. I don't expect Daybreak to manage it either, but it's nice seeing them make an attempt.

I think there is a lot of potential in making a game out of a blend of EVE/UO and Farmville/Clash of Clans/etc. where masses of people inhabit the world to socialize and do dailies through a mobile app, and a smaller set of people play the game more seriously through a standalone client on a Box (console/PC). You have content creation going both ways. The App side is making content for the Box side and vice versa, while you attempt to add features to both. You can have multiple apps feeding stimulus into the data set and multiple Box worlds feeding off that data. The more important element is the app side, but that's the side that currently gets less attention.

So even while you're playing your little Farmville app you're tied into the global politics of the people playing the more immersive world as it affects your app side stuff, or just because it's fun to talk about. And it's effectively a gateway drug, inviting you to take the shared world more seriously. Then there is no arbitrary, abstract events just randomly happening. Everything has cause and effect, allowing you to comprehend the development of a situation. No event is beyond the scope of player interaction either. If something happens in the game, a player made it happen either intentionally or accidentally.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
I think he's just referring to how hardcore it was, and how they had to backpedal on that a lot. Not many people are willing to put up with Wildstar's version of hard, or anyone else's. These are massively multiplayer games, and some people want them designed to filter out a massive amount of players. Dafuq? Have different content for different people. Let them self-select their preferences and attain or avoid whatever status they like.
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
I'm a big fan of procedural games, in the zero exclusion sense. If content generation is going to be dynamic, don't let it alienate players from being involved in that dynamic. Quests can spawn items/monsters that contribute to other events going on in some meaningful way, so that even the solo quester who isn't grinding stuff still has an impact on things in the overall game world. I think destructible scenery is dumb in an MMO, because either it has no consequence (players can't chop down kelethin) or it removes quality content from the game in favor of voxel craters. Neither sounds very interesting to me. Mining out a cave sounds fun if it opens new content, but then you have the problem of everything looking strip mined constantly like one of those technic minecraft servers. Leave the terrain modification for instanced content, such as housing and the like.

I still think that using a series of counters based on population density/death of specific types of npcs to determine content generation is probably the best method. Make some location specific, some global, some entire server cluster wise, etc. Then make a few static dungeons around the world (with specific lore based design and flavoring) and have similar mechanics but with different triggers. The more people xping and killing frogloks in Guk, for example, the greater the chance that Executioner or Ghoul Lord shows up. One group killing a few at a time isn't going to require their immediate attention, so spawn timers are a little longer. Encourage people to play together. If a zone goes unused for awhile, the named npcs show up to replace the normal ones in various locations because they are now going about their daily business without all these adventurers fucking the place up. Tie all that into raid content, where if you kill enough Ghoul Lords, the Guk King can spawn and he's a 3-group minimum mob. Get the players involved in content creation, don't penalize everyone else when one group has higher playtime.

The problem that would arise with procedural content is that eventually the entire server would have itineraries and reasons to do things as a collective group, where progression along spawning paths rewards not only the people downing the raid mobs, but everyone on the server with cooler shit to do or more interesting monsters to fight. You could even have it tie into things like opening zones up, general store npcs sell higher quality gear, zone-wide buffs, etc etc. Oh wait, that's not a problem, that should be the endgame goal of every mmorpg.

There's no reason to favor one style over another (fuck pvp in my pve mmos, tho) and you can definitely have content for all types of non-pvp player in a single faction, procedurally generated game. EQ had some of that right, but they fucked solo players and made too much of the shit exclusionary in the early days. Just take away the static spawn crap to discourage camping, add in procedural generation based on population density/npc population type and throw in some interesting class design. Let the politics of the players decide factions; not some arbitrary Red Team vs. Blue team nonsense.

But EQ:N? Yeah, I don't think this is the right direction at all.
 

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
While these are good ideas, Rez, they still require work. I think EQN was trying to create some kind of extreme barebones template that the players would continue to fill. Looking at the mod scene, with some basic quality checking by company people this could really work, just not purely in art assets as they've been trying / are trying with EQN:L.

Also, one of the issues is maintaining relevance for this content for a long while. What do you do once you've burned the ghoul king so many times everyone has everything? In EQ that answer was platinum accumulation and the great sum of gear being droppable through kunark and big ticket items in velious. In more recent mmo's they've taken to gating content behind daily/weekly timers and instancing. With your version of dynamic spawning, players could simply go balls to the wall for a few months and have killed all relevant content with little to no reason to continue it?
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
Games such as FFXIV (alright, just FFXIV) have been pumping out raid encounters and new mob designs and new equipment art and all sorts of crap like bi-monthly for over a year and a half now. So the resources are definitely available to some companies to pull some of this stuff off.

Slight alterations to existing npcs to make them look different, not the kunark method of "this froglok's name is different, He's got 11x the hp!" type crap. Having the concept of tiers already built into your design means your art team already knows, so your starting stuff looks standard fantasy fare, and gets more intricate/menacing/cool looking as you progress. Then, you use a different metric of balance for each tier of mobs. If you have ever played/heard about FF12, it has a gambit system that allows you to effectively program individual characters with predetermined actions/abilities/etc. Map that onto npcs, create a few "archetypes" such as caster, healer, ranged, rogue-like melee, whatever. Then give them a couple of slots that effectively have random abilities from a tier/type specific list. When they spawn, they spawn with a generated skillset, at a predetermined level range. Think quasi-diablo2 elite naming conventions, but with mmorpg type abilities. Could even tie specific naming deals to specific abilities. And yes, the idea is you -want- players to go balls to the wall. Because the more shit that dies, the more content is released for everyone, so that everyone has more stuff to do.

If anything, the more powerful guilds will want the lower tier guilds to kill as much as shit as possible, as it pushes the content to become progressively harder, especially if the more powerful guilds are killing appropriate mobs as well. Then have gear follow the trend. As the bigger guilds kill bigger shit, more things become available for lower tier guilds to do (not the leavings that occured in EQ, but actually opening -more- content instead of blocking it) and more powerful gear becomes available across the entire server. For example, Terraria (omgz sandbox!) has "Hard Mode" which is opened by killing the Wall of Flesh in Hell. Until the wall is killed, you only have normal types of ore and monsters around. When you kill the Wall, three new types of ore/material open up, lots of new crafting options and new mobs are released. Expand that into an mmo.

Server starts fresh, you have gnolls/kobolds/orcs/aviaks/darkweed snakes all over the place. As people kill the populations and spawn bosses, they progressively keep pushing the power levels of the spawned bosses up. Eventually you end up with some dragon spawning and being substantially harder than previous bosses. Big guild kills it and suddenly now the triggers to spawn the previous tier of bosses have their requirements reduced. But now there's Obsidian (resource originally not available in the game) for making new weapons and shit and drakes and unicorns and all sorts of other higher tier mobs now spawn in places. Bosses keep getting killed and the increased spawnrate of lower tier bosses means more shit for lower tier guilds to kill, ramping up the counts needed to spawn the dragon tier bosses much faster so that the upper tier guilds have more content to kill as well. This in turn lets them spawn the next tier of bosses, which when killed in turn creates more lower tier and dragon tier bosses while the next tier will spawn faster because there's more shit for guilds to kill. This also creates new levels of craftable and dropped gear each time a tier is popped, creating a jump in power for the entire server each time something huge is killed.

This jump isn't a gear reset, it is the natural progression of getting better gear by killing bigger shit. And while each progressive boss means harder shit spawns, it also increases the spawn rate of lower tier bosses (to some predetermined cap so killing an orc doesn't spawn 3 dragons or something stupid like that, obviously) so that guilds that aren't cutting edge have even more opportunities to see higher level content faster and can gear up quicker.

Tie in skill growth with this "server power level" along with crafting components and types and the availability of new spells/abilities as well as new content being opened up. Don't penalize the server because one guild is the most powerful in the land. Have people rooting for the top end guilds to kill shit so that there is more stuff to do, not less like what happened in EQ up through PoP.

From a content generation standpoint, once you make a couple of tiers for each type of mob, and give the raid bosses that can spawn (even have bosses that spawn randomly in certain areas, and are not tied into the forced spawn counters) some abilities, at that point you are ahead of the game. You put the "gating" counters behind what people have actually killed, not in the time it takes to kill them. Then you simply can add bigger/more powerful content to the game as you go along, and by using a modular approach to the artwork/content, you can easily keep new shit happening for quite awhile, especially without needing all the scripting and shit that happens in FFXIV and similar.

Another post I can't seem to find detailed the tier system I referred to. It was essentially the idea that mobs of various types are populations. Dungeons with a specific flavor have specific mob types, but in the overworld, mobs are based on population. If, for example, you are in The Commonlands, Darkweed snakes are all over that mofaka. If you keep killing the orcs, eventually they stop spawning all together, and the zone is just full of darkweed snakes. Once the population hits a certain point, you get a rare darkweed snake to spawn somewhere in the zone. If you kill this snake, the darkweeds start despawning if left up for too long and then the orcs start spawning again. You can create synergies like this all over the place, and it all comes down to the spawning mechanic being tied to some very simple database work. Anyway, killing these tier-1 "boss" mobs in zones slowly builds up the counter to an overworld "king" mob who then can spawn. This could be zone dependent, or continent dependant, whatever. This king mob is substantially stronger and requires at least a full group compared to the rare, if not more. Killing the king causes the counters needed to spawn the boss mobs to shrink, meaning they can effectively spawn faster if people are still actively killing stuff. That king mob also adds a counter to a continent/game wide (whatever, easy to expand/shrink) that leads to a dragon spawning. So by playing the game normally, bosses spawn at a fairly randomish/predictably slow rate. Especially in zones with lots of mob types, it would be hard to spawn a specific boss, etc. Anyway...

So the entire server contributes to raid content opening up. It doesn't start that way, you basically have to "level up" the server. The more people actively taking part in content that affects these counters (quests/crafting/whatever can figure into them as well. Pretty easy to get creative with the methods) the faster the raid content opens. But if that many people are actively spawning shit, that means that all the gear/loot/levels aren't being concentrated into one guild, so they aren't going to be decked in gear ready for this dragon raid right out the gate. As people keep killing mobs, eventually the big guild/s take on and successfully kill the dragon. As stated earlier, new crafting shit opens up, the kings spawn more often, new monsters spawn in areas, etc. If the big guild manages to keep downing the kings, then the bosses continue to spawn faster up to a point so that more kings can spawn, putting more group+ mobs into the hands of the rest of the server. Everyone wants guilds bigger than them to kill stuff, because it means more stuff for them to kill and faster gear/level gain period. This dragon now requires slightly less kings to respawn, and in and of itself it added to a number of different counters. Now you're in tier 3, which as people kill the dragon and the previous other bosses, it continues to add up until a demi-god or whatever spawns, and this fashion keeps going on and on. This is just overland.

Then, you tie the dungeons that are thematically related together with their own spawning system, that adds to the counters of the overworld system. The soloers and crap outside benefit directly from the groups farming dungeons, which have their own internal spawning systems and counters. These dungeons have two versions: quest version and open version. You guessed it, quest version is an instance, designed with whatever story people want to put in there and have max player limits and all the shit that happens normally in instances. Quests are rare out in the overworld, because that's just not a safe place for people to be standing around handing out bear-ass collecting quests. Anyway, same layout, just quest specific stuff in the instances and depending on the quest varying amounts of mobs. The open dungeons are just like EQ dungeons, except instead of having static spawns for most the rares, they can basically pop anywhere. Fuck camping. Any number of people can be in there, and the more mobs that die, the quicker the "rare" mob counters pile up. Enough rares die, a 1+ group mob spawns. This guy counts as being an overworld king, so the raiders benefit from people killing shit in these dungeons. I'll stop here because you get the idea by this point, I'm sure.

What this requires is a moderately well kept database, and then artists and a couple of designers to keep developing successive tiers. Again, using modular art and ability skillsets, you can create progressively cooler and stronger npcs as time goes on, with less effort. Then, you still have a secondary expansion team that doesn't function like the old days of "Boom!" and done for a year+. Have them be constantly working on developing zones and new npcs and new content that is released every couple of months, but -still- gated behind the progression level of the server. This would also have the effect of getting a Gates of AQ type mentality that the whole server needs to work together to open up successive tiers of content. But instead of getting an endgame raiding zone and a 20 man, you get a new overland area, dungeons, more mobs (reusing some of the older ones tastefully, of course) and progressively stronger raid mobs that require the server to continue to work together to push past.

You can then have statistics on the database on how fast people are progressing on each server, and dynamically alter the rates of various counters and what not with a more hands on approach if you want people past a certain tier to enjoy your hard work. Or even slow down content production if it isn't being consumed as fast. Anyway, I enjoy typing.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
Didn't Asheron's Call have dynamic content like 15 years ago? I never played the game, but I remember people talking about how shit was always changing in the game world.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
7,948
9,616
Didn't Asheron's Call have dynamic content like 15 years ago? I never played the game, but I remember people talking about how shit was always changing in the game world.
It wasn't dynamic content, it was episodic content. The world didn't change in response to player actions, but every month the devs would change stuff. It was as simple as having snow cover crawl down from mountains (and mattekars coming with it) during winter, as surprising as having an entire newb city being blown up and leaving an empty crater (and people relogging there falling to their death from their original height), and as interesting as a PvP-enabled dungeon in which you choose if you wanted to blow the crystal at the bottom, or defend it (the devs ended up having to pilot a boss on one server because the defenders surprisingly were managing to hold off the attackers 24/24 and the next patch coming assumed the crystal had been destroyed).

But it was all done by devs, which is why you had some months filled with new stuff and a dungeon and some which had some roaming mobs with new names popping up in an area, and nothing else.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
6
I think he's just referring to how hardcore it was, and how they had to backpedal on that a lot. Not many people are willing to put up with Wildstar's version of hard, or anyone else's. These are massively multiplayer games, and some people want them designed to filter out a massive amount of players. Dafuq? Have different content for different people. Let them self-select their preferences and attain or avoid whatever status they like.
They've not actually backpedalledthatmuch, which is why it's haemorrhaged players and will end up F2P or shuttered by the end of the year. I've said this in a lot of MMO development threads - yes, thereisa market for a "hardcore" muhmorpuhguhs but it's asmallmarket and the dev budget for any potential game really needs to be proportional to the money. Demanding publishers piss away hundreds of millions on new games which willmaybehold to on six figures of subscribers (if they're very lucky) just means the games will not get made.

Also Moorgard turned up at his new job:Phase Four | Mobhunter.com
Following a few months of convalescing after the big layoff, I now begin the next phase of my career. I have accepted a position at Blizzard Entertainment working on World of Warcraft.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
They've not actually backpedalledthatmuch, which is why it's haemorrhaged players and will end up F2P or shuttered by the end of the year. I've said this in a lot of MMO development threads - yes, thereisa market for a "hardcore" muhmorpuhguhs but it's asmallmarket and the dev budget for any potential game really needs to be proportional to the money. Demanding publishers piss away hundreds of millions on new games which willmaybehold to on six figures of subscribers (if they're very lucky) just means the games will not get made.
The market size for gamers is continuing to grow. The first question is what percentage of the gaming community plays MMOs (compared to MOBAs, consoles, etc). The next question is for the percentage of gamers who play MMOs, what percentage of them want a difficult, challenging game that rewards players based on completing challenging accomplishments and punishes players who fail to meet those challenges.

I lose interest in MMOs that do not have challenging PVE content. I would much rather play a MMO where the end game content is too hard versus too easy. This assumes when you finally do play well enough to complete the challenge that you are rewarded for it or get a sense of accomplishment. I don't really consider that as a "hardcore" mentality. I am an old fart though so what constitutes fun and challenging to me might not be anywhere close to what teenage and college age gamers think.
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
The market size for gamers is continuing to grow. The first question is what percentage of the gaming community plays MMOs (compared to MOBAs, consoles, etc). The next question is for the percentage of gamers who play MMOs, what percentage of them want a difficult, challenging game that rewards players based on completing challenging accomplishments and punishes players who fail to meet those challenges.

I lose interest in MMOs that do not have challenging PVE content. I would much rather play a MMO where the end game content is too hard versus too easy. This assumes when you finally do play well enough to complete the challenge that you are rewarded for it or get a sense of accomplishment. I don't really consider that as a "hardcore" mentality. I am an old fart though so what constitutes fun and challenging to me might not be anywhere close to what teenage and college age gamers think.
Couple of problems. You need to define challenging, as currently WoW Mythic raiding is the arguably hardest shit out there, with Wildstar maybe second place due to the simple lack of people actually sticking around to endgame content. EQ was never challenging PVE content, unless you mean broken or pure cockblock fodder. So how would you define challenging, and what games have you played that have provided that version of challenge? This is one of the core reasons why "challenging" games don't get made or don't get the support they want.

Dark Souls is challenging, in that it rapes you until you learn the basics of staying alive, and then it is all about learning enemy animations and when to roll/block to not get killed by them. EQ was challenging in that if you didn't have a shitload of time to play you were at a major disadvantage compared to most other players. WoW Mythic raiding is incredibly challenging if you define challenge as spatial awareness and ability to react to shit almost instantly.

This type of mentality is one of the reasons why whenever the word Sandbox! gets tossed around, I start looking for a translator because everyone's version of a challenge is very different, just as everyone's version of a Sandbox! is very different. So while there may be a market for the category of "challenge," I doubt that there is a big enough market of players looking for a specific type of "challenge" to really warrant the budget of a triple A game.

Insert Pantheon joke here.
 

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,647
1,187
Didn't Asheron's Call have dynamic content like 15 years ago? I never played the game, but I remember people talking about how shit was always changing in the game world.
Yes it was honestly one of the most intestingly dynamic worlds of any MMO currently. It had seasons the world would go through spring/summer/fall/winter the trees/grass changed winter had snow and they had a really good story that spanned years that kept changing/adding things to it. It had its issues such as the characters were ugly but it did some things that I have not seen fully repeated yet to this day.
 

Greyform

Bronze Knight of the Realm
431
17
Couple of problems. You need to define challenging, .
Challenging is any content that can kick your ass without relying on RNG to do so. There is nothing more enjoyable then figuring out how to beat something that has beaten you down repeatedly until you figure out the correct strat. But I hate losing to something just because random proc that cannot be blocked/avoided just happened to go off at the worst time.
 

Xexx

Vyemm Raider
7,449
1,652
I was just thinking about this game.

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