EQ Never

Genjiro_sl said:

How so? You were shoved out the door with a starter zone just like Eve, then you were left to your own devices. It was even far more of a sandbox experience if you played on a server like Sullon Zek, because just like Eve, you controlled everyone elses progression through any means possible (training, pvp) -- even other guilds on our side. We anal fisted everyone and didnt allow anyone to even raid anything remotely current at the time. And just like Eve, we had shit where multiple guilds would form up to try and counter us since they couldn't do it alone. Unlike pretty much every other game, in that world the second your character entered the world until you logged out, you were not safe. Not in dungeons, or cities, or raiding, or anywhere. That's as "sandbox" as you are going to find in a fantasy mmorpg.

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Fawe_sl said:

Original EQ was a sandbox. There were no rails, nothing was required, there were no limits. You explored and made your own goals. As the game expanded it was put on rails more and more. Of course EQ isn't as much of a sandbox as Minecraft where you actually create the world you're in, but in terms of gameplay, Original EQ is certainly a sandbox game.

I would say Plane of Power and beyond is when EQ started to abandon the Sandbox

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No. I'll address both of you.

Genjiro: You were shoved out the door, yes, but the "rails" were just conning mobs. You would run in a direction, find stuff you could kill, and kill it for xp/loot. Sit there for a while and then move on to the next area. It's a very poor Themepark because the rails were hidden, but they are there. You had natural limits of stuff you could kill or not. PVP was just a meta game on what you could kill for loot and xp. That's not a sandbox feature. That's just a PVP feature. EQ was a themepark that had very little signs, but it was still a funneled themepark.

Fawe:
Rails: The rails were what content you could do. Instead of having a quest NPC tell you to go to a certain area and grind mobs for levels, you just had to figure out where those mobs were on your own. That's not a sandbox. There was still a natural progression of zones and their level requirements. There was still keying and dungeon/raid progression.

Nothing was required? I don't really get that. The game was there for you to level your character and get loot. You need to kill monsters to do that. That's required. If you stopped and smelled the roses, that's great, but that doesn't make it a sandbox.

I have no idea what you mean by no limits either. You couldn't cut down trees, you could set up a mine, you couldn't build a house or a castle. All you could really do is kill the static spawning NPCs and gain loot and experience. The loot can then be traded around and an economy was set up around it.

EQ was just a very simple themepark game. There are absolutely zero sandbox elements to it. The game was all about vertical progression and your character's power was based on loot.

EVE, a real sandbox game, allows new characters to participate in all levels of play. You can mine, you can kill pirates, you can be a merchant, you could build ships, you could build bases. You can do that shit almost anywhere.

I just don't think you know what a real sandbox is. A themepark MMO doesn't have to have quests that tell you where to go to be a themepark.

You have a very weird definition of "unlimited" when described ways to play your character in EQ.

edit: Because someone is wrong on the internet.

In EQ, your only progression was gaining levels. You could only play your character with the skills pre-described to you. You could only level based on what mobs you could kill depending on your level.

I don't know you move from that to "whatever the fuck you want to do"? So you could change alignment of your character so you can enter in different cities or not be KOS to certain NPCs? You didn't have quests telling you where to go, so you had to explore more?

You weren't required to raid, craft or group? Sure I guess but who cares? I mean if you took WOW, removed all the quests, then allowed you to grind mobs to switch from Alliance to Horde, would you call WOW a themepark all of the sudden? I mean you don't have to raid craft or group in WOW. You could go wherever you wanted at level 1 too.

Seriously, those aren't what defines a sandbox.

You got way too caught up on the word "terrain." Although that's part of it, in that case I didn't actually mean the game's terrain -- the context was lost. When I say that, I mean the world can evolve in a way that Draegan spelled out a little better. It's about putting tools in players hands and letting them shape what the game becomes (and I mean actual tools). You're not doing anything in EQ that wasn't crafted by the hand of SOE, outside of guild drama of course.

Edit: And holy shit there is wiggle room with the last sentence. I swear I've overanalyzed this brief post because I'm waiting for some minor discrepancy in my wording with you.

Fawe_sl said:

And you get locked in to 1 aspect of the game - leveling - which you think is what defines the entire game.

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Oh ok, that explains it.

Ok guys, WOW is a sandbox MMO just because my group of friends can create some level 1 Wargen and walk to the Dwarven tram and yiff at each other every night. WOW's totally not about leveling either.

Draegan_sl said:

Oh ok, that explains it.

Ok guys, WOW is a sandbox MMO just because my group of friends can create some level 1 Wargen and walk to the Dwarven tram and yiff at each other every night. WOW's totally not about leveling either.

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EQ wasn't a sandbox mmo, but it did have more freedom and less theme park than most mmos that came after it. It's all relative.

Arguing how may angels fit on the head of a sandbox mmo pin is kind of pointless, but understandable given that there isn't much else to talk about. And the EQ thread was due for some more cyclical banter.

Just because people get together and do roleplay-ish things, doesn't make it a sandbox bro.

Sandbox MMOs historically have been open PVP games. PVE Sandbox, is minecraft terraria I guess (never played)? Anyway I've been mentioning i every dozen pages here people expecting EQ1 pretty'ed up for 2013 are in for a real surprise IF Smed and co. are serious about it being something new and are not just blowing smoke for PR.

I'd drown kittens for EVE in fantasy trappings with more engaging PVE so this might be good for me. We'll see in a year I guess. I'm hoping no levels or levels used like in Planetside (i.e. entirely pointless to even include and only for the "need level upz" crowd), and based on unlocked abilitites and traits sorta like EVE/PS2.

I dunno what a sandbox is, but I do know that I want an oversized shoulderpad, stat.

Mr Creed_sl said:

Sandbox MMOs historically have been open PVP games.

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I know what your saying, but I think the word sandbox as applied to MMOs means something different to everyone.

This shouldn't be the case since you can go to a playground and see a sandbox for yourself. It's four boards and sand. You've probably played in one as a kid. There's no PVP.

Sandboxes are all about creating your own content like a sand castle or whatever. Minecraft is a good example of a sandbox MMO where players create all kinds of cool stuff. Rollcoasters buildings, all of their own design.

Most MMOs today are 100% dev created. Devs get the sandbox, we consume what the devs create. It's like going to see a movie.

Obviously, the themepark/sandbox dichotomy is more of a continuum than a simple binary choice (and certainly, eq was more sandboxy than WoW is), but for something to be considered thoroughly a sandbox, and not a themepark with sandbox tendencies, I'd it needs to have the following four qualities:

1. No having the game lead the player through the world. Questlines designed to direct the player, so that they see the entire game, are certainly the most blatant example of this, but like Draegan's said, using level ranges on content to force the player to move on is also a form of this. This means that a sandbox either has no progression, horizontal progression only, or a much more gradual power curve on the vertical progression, so that it doesn't serve as a way of gating content.

2. As few artificial restrictions on player action as possible. This means things like "can't equip this item until you're level X," "can't fight alongside another player unless you're grouped with them," and "can't attack another player except in specific approved scenarios" (for that last one, I'm talking about hard restrictions, where you're literally incapable of doing so; soft restrictions, such as having guards on your ass if you attack someone in a city, are perfectly fine, I think).

3. Can play the game in any way that fits with the game's setting. What I mean here is not having the game assume everyone is going to play as an 'adventurer', or something similar, and only providing content for that play style. In your typical fantasy mmo, choosing to play as a farmer, blacksmith, soldier, or city official should be considered just as valid and viable as playing the adventurer.

4. It's a sandbox, let us make sandcastles. Players need to be able to make a lasting mark on the world. Being able to build structures, or otherwise alter the landscape, is the obvious example, but it also means stuff like a player-run economy, player-run factions being able to control parts of the game, and things like that.

Draegan_sl said:

No. I'll address both of you

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The reason why you and this site are terribad Draegan is because of posts like this. You never played original EQ or variation thereof (EQMac, Progession servers, one of the EQ Classic Emus, etc., etc., etc.) so you don't get to make judgment calls as to whether it was or was not a sandbox (or had sandboxy elements) but you're doing it anyway: viz. terribad. But since you're an admin, nobody seems to call you out on your bullshit. Go play on the EQMac server or wtf for a while to get a little street cred and then come back and opine.

@Soygen - if the game is ignoring my posts, then it's exponentially more loserly to call someone out for responding to my post then to actually respond to my post as that brings even more attention to the post that's supposed to be ignored. You've really schmucked up in the last few years, what happened?Thumbs High buddy.

I don't think you have to play EQ to know it is not, and never was a sandbox... I quick browse of a wiki page would make that fact readily apparent.

Fawe_sl said:

From my multi-paragraph response the 1 word you pick out is "roleplayers". You win. I give up.

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You said this: PvP/Duels/Arena events/roleplayers/traders

I'm mostly focusing on Duels and Arena events because that's mostly roleplaying or just creating an in-game event where people agree to rules. Like 3v3 fights where the 50 other people standing around promise not to do anything.

I mean, that's not sandbox stuff because you can do that in every MMORPG. Everquest is a game where you kill stuff and get stuff from killing it. The game has no other function to it other than that. If people have weddings, trade gear, agree to "fair" 2v2 pvp battles, that's just gravy.

tad10_sl said:

The reason why you and this site are terribad Draegan is because of posts like this. You never played original EQ or variation thereof (EQMac, Progession servers, one of the EQ Classic Emus, etc., etc., etc.) so you don't get to make judgment calls as to whether it was or was not a sandbox (or had sandboxy elements) but you're doing it anyway: viz. terribad. But since you're an admin, nobody seems to call you out on your bullshit. Go play on the EQMac server or wtf for a while to get a little street cred and then come back and opine.

@Soygen - if the game is ignoring my posts, then it's exponentially more loserly to call someone out for responding to my post then to actually respond to my post as that brings even more attention to the post that's supposed to be ignored. You've really schmucked up in the last few years, what happened?Thumbs High buddy.

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I'm happy to see you're still fighting the good fight. EQ is still not a sandbox. You had a lot of freedom in the game, but it was still a themepark. But if you're butthurt over the word themepark because you think it's insultingly too close to WOW, just call it a very limited and one dimensional sandbox then if that makes you happy.

Also I knew you couldn't stay away.
Sucker.