EQ Never
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Mahes
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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As far as Planes of Power and before, EQ was very different from WoW in how the game played. Nice troll attempt though. I liked it.
Not trying to troll, but the best path in EQ was to power through the levels and then camp the two group based dungeons and try to get into a raid guild. Lots of people didn't do that, they spent tons of time doing little quests for shit like a stein or a testament or whatever but that didnt mean that was a good use of time. Its the same in WoW, lots of people did the long quests like stitches or spent tons of time in gnomer trying to get all their gear etc etc but that doesnt make either game a sandbox. EQ let you start some of the endgame stuff a little earlier in classic because if you werent a raider some of the best stuff you could get started to open up in the lvl 35ish range, which I guess is a bit different from WoW since in WoW that didn't happen til around lvl 50. I don't think that really makes either game a sandbox. That said I liked the fact that in EQ you could slow down prior to max level and put some time in earning gear that wouldnt be instantly obsolete at max level.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Back in Classic EQ the best path wasn't the path most people used though. That wasn't because EQ was so much better, but because the internet was still relatively new and people didn't automatically google every strat for every action. EQ benefited from our ignorance and we had a lot of fun because of it.
The mmo universe has changed. We have google and every other tool available to us now that trivializes content in ways that destroys the immersion of old school games like EQ. That isn't good or bad, it just means that any game that comes out now that wants to engage us in the same way classic EQ did has to be relevant to the current age.
That's fine. I don't want to go back to EQ, I want a new experience. Although, I do pity people who never really enjoyed the special time that EQ had. It was an experience like no other and it will never be repeated again. I suspect people who were fortunate enough to play UO, or other old school games in their heyday, feel the same way.
The mmo universe has changed. We have google and every other tool available to us now that trivializes content in ways that destroys the immersion of old school games like EQ. That isn't good or bad, it just means that any game that comes out now that wants to engage us in the same way classic EQ did has to be relevant to the current age.
That's fine. I don't want to go back to EQ, I want a new experience. Although, I do pity people who never really enjoyed the special time that EQ had. It was an experience like no other and it will never be repeated again. I suspect people who were fortunate enough to play UO, or other old school games in their heyday, feel the same way.
Ya for sure, but the point I was prolly poorly trying to make was that literally hundreds of thousands of people played WoW like that too. It just wasn't us lol by the time WoW rolled around we were jaded vets for the most part. But there were so many more people who never played EQ who played WoW classic just like we played EQ classic.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Hah, too true. And the "new kids on the block" (yep, I'm implying that everyone is gay after us jaded old fucks... sue me) will be jaded after LoL is old and past it's prime.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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The only way EQnext will recapture the expansive and 'unknown' feeling of EQvanilla is if the world is truly dynamic. If googling tactics, maps, walkthroughs, etc means next to nothing. If one has to be deeply involved in the game's politics, economy, social structure and terrain developments to stay current and competitive.
Enter the sandbox.
Enter the sandbox.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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One thing I think might be necessary for EQnext to feel really cool is making long distance travel really difficult/time consuming. I hurts me to say this, because I don't find much more annoying in an MMO than travel. I just feel like there needs to be a way to attach people to a geographical area, and limiting ease of movement may be the easiest way to do this. You could probably do it with resource availability too, so maybe a combination of both.
I just have this thought in my head about a giant world with different regions with their own communities. You stay in these areas for long periods of time and they are constantly changing. Maybe when the community first enters the Karanas they are very much like EQvanilla, sparsely populated and full of animals. Because travel is so annoying, players set up an outpost to better facilitate levelling/crafting/resource gathering. The settlement attracts bandit NPCs to the area. As the settlement grows, it becomes a threat to a local population of orcs, or perhaps mining activity uncovers a procedurally generated tunnel system of gnolls that overrun the outpost. Perhaps instead of rebuild, the locals relocate to a nearby city and start the process all over...
Ugh I hope this game is that cool...
I just have this thought in my head about a giant world with different regions with their own communities. You stay in these areas for long periods of time and they are constantly changing. Maybe when the community first enters the Karanas they are very much like EQvanilla, sparsely populated and full of animals. Because travel is so annoying, players set up an outpost to better facilitate levelling/crafting/resource gathering. The settlement attracts bandit NPCs to the area. As the settlement grows, it becomes a threat to a local population of orcs, or perhaps mining activity uncovers a procedurally generated tunnel system of gnolls that overrun the outpost. Perhaps instead of rebuild, the locals relocate to a nearby city and start the process all over...
Ugh I hope this game is that cool...
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Extended travel only works with very populated worlds (servers). Using multiple-server tech like the traditional old school mmos, extended travel always fails because most people leave after a couple of months, making grouping and raiding difficult for those who stick around. But that doesn't mean you have to give up extended travel, devs just have to fucking plan ahead. The best solution has always been one single mega-server for everyone.
EvE is a perfect example of that. Spread everyone out on the same mega server, and make travel between distant areas time consuming. Splitting up your player base on multiple servers is the dumbest business decision ever made in mmo's. I'm surprised at how many mmo devs still follow that archaic model. EVERYONE should be on the same server, either using shards (glorified instances, GW1) or massive maps (EvE). I prefer the massive, spread everyone out, map tech like EvE, but shards accomplish the same thing.
Multiple server tech should have been dropped 10 years ago, it would have saved a ton of mmo's from perceived failure and ridicule. You don't have to announce to the world you are merging (FAIL) servers if everyone is on the same mega-server.
I agree, traveling really adds that extra element to the MMO world. Making it bigger. Coming across someone and making friends. There are so many different things that can occur when you add traveling in an open mmo world. Having flying mounts, insta travel, and things of that nature make the game feel small and takes away from the community feel. Just my two cents.
Traveling is one of the most compelling things that a sandbox game can offer, because you arent forced onto rails they are free to make travel take a long time because the game by its nature doesnt actually require you to travel often. EVE has brutally long travel but it doesnt matter because the game doesnt ask you to travel constantly like a themepark game would.
Could you imagine a Skyrim type world, times 100, with different environments and dungeons built around multiplayer? Holy fucking hell.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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If they make the world large enough, and varied enough, as to not require instancing... Just take my money
Skyrim allows so much player modding, its what really makes the game amazing. Now applying that to an MMO is really really really really really fucking hard. There are a thousand pitfalls but I hope SOE explores it. I think they plan too, you know shit like player studio wasn't rolled out in EQ just cause they thought a 14 year old game needed more shit lol. I actually like how they incorporated it. Skyrim has so much player made weapons and armor that look so cool and just the volume of it overwhelms what devs can do, it makes so much sense to harness that.
Whether they can harness some of the more advanced modding that players are willing to do is the big question, we saw some attempts at it with player made dungeons in EQ2 but it is really a new frontier for the industry.
Whether they can harness some of the more advanced modding that players are willing to do is the big question, we saw some attempts at it with player made dungeons in EQ2 but it is really a new frontier for the industry.
i think draegan was sodomized by higher level players when he played MMO's. it's the only explanation i can think of as to why he hates the idea of leveling so much. he campaigns against it the way vegetarians campaign against people who actually enjoy meat, and he's just as annoying as a vegan while he does it. draegan, have a cheeseburger and shut the fuck up.
Dandai
<WoW Guild Officer>
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Well, I can certainly empathize with Draegan's point of view. I won't speak for him, but my biggest point of contention with leveling is that almost every MMO with levels (except maybe SWTOR) say that the game "startsat max level." For me, that means that I have to endure 20-30 hours of (typically) filler content that is dull and uninteresting and whose sole purpose is to extend the amount of time it takes me to reach therealgame that Iwantto be playing.
Games like vanilla EQ where the journey was actually pleasurable and felt meaningful are most certainly the exception and not the rule. And even then, my experience is (obviously) exclusive to me and absolutely not the universal experience of everyone who played EQ.
Anyway, I'm inclined to agree with Draegan because these days I would much rather play a game that doesn't arbitrarily restrict me from playing with the people that I want to play with than play a game where I either have to carry someone or be carried by someone if our power (in this case, level) discrepancy is too great.
Games like vanilla EQ where the journey was actually pleasurable and felt meaningful are most certainly the exception and not the rule. And even then, my experience is (obviously) exclusive to me and absolutely not the universal experience of everyone who played EQ.
Anyway, I'm inclined to agree with Draegan because these days I would much rather play a game that doesn't arbitrarily restrict me from playing with the people that I want to play with than play a game where I either have to carry someone or be carried by someone if our power (in this case, level) discrepancy is too great.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I can understand where you and Draegan are coming from, but max level isn't always the best experience. WAR and Rift are good examples of that. In WAR the best gameplay was the first tier, 2nd tier too but the gameplay was far and above more fun at the first 10 levels. Rift has a similar experience if you PvP. The most fun is the 10-30 tiers, after that it starts to wear down and become tedious. Other mmos have the same problem, but in PvE and PvP. SWTOR, Lotro and EQ2 comes to mind.
The point is, depending on the game, the endgame isn't always the holy grail. Sometimes it just becomes too much of an overcomplicated mess, with overloaded hotbars and too many similar abilities that really have no point. KISS sucked as a band (imo) but their philosophy was spot on (Keep It Simple Stupid).
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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Levelling is needed for no other reason that to assign a numerical value to player power, so other players can recognize that player power for grouping purposes. If there are no numerical levels, how do I know the rogue in my party isn't doing the dps of a 'level' 10, when we want to explore a dungeon where the mobs are 'level' 50? Titles? Isn't tht just another form of 'leveling'? There needs to be levels just like there needs to be classes/jobs... Can you imagine forming a PVE group without them?
It would be even better if you could get oversized shoulderpads at the end of some these dungeons.
Quaid
Trump's Staff
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