EQ Never

qwerty_sl said:

For example in Darkfall, one of their hyped features was that if players clear a goblin cave, it will remain empty for a time. Then a roaming band of orcs or something might find it and decide to make it their new home.

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This was the idea in GW2, but it never really panned out. We got some shitty scripted events that recycled every few mins. It would be cool to have real consequences for world events. Every time a game tries though it doesn't seem to work well. How about the PVP area and castles in WOW? They were dominated by whatever faction had more players.

Maybe if some NPCs, attacked randomly, like a rift encounter, but they would take over your city until you took it back?

Making some real intelligence in NPCs takes a lot of work, probably more work then creating a whole game with art/itemization/dungeon design.

It's interesting that qwerty bashes being able to keep one eye on the tv when I keep hearing that would be a great benefit of a return to eq style combat. Which is it folks??

Caeden_sl said:

It's interesting that qwerty bashes being able to keep one eye on the tv when I keep hearing that would be a great benefit of a return to eq style combat. Which is it folks??

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I watched more TV, and played more games during EQ days than I ever did in WoW.

It took 10 mins to get full mana for crying out loud! Not to mention the week long camps.

sorry double post my internet blows at work.

I don't see why we can't have instanced and non instanced dungeons. No reason why both can't both exist in a game. Sometimes I like just running a Mcdungeon for 15 min or so. I also miss the /ooc camp checks and working your way down with a group in Sebelis.

The major problem with non instanced dungeons is going to be how to make a non instanced dungeons viable without long respawn timers and regen. If a group can kill every single camp themselves, they aren't going to share. They will just go from camp to camp monopolizing the dungeon. Maybe make the dungeon extremely large with a lot of trash where you wouldn't want to move from a camp once you got there because it wouldn't be possible.

qwerty_sl said:

You could watch TV in the downtime. But you couldn't watch TV during actual combat, that's the difference.

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You could if you're a Wizard.

Laura_sl said:

You could if you're a Wizard.

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ya nothing compares to waiting out for evac invain while your wiz is not paying attention cause of that slam dunk contest on TV.

Malakriss_sl said:

I disagree with any type of token or "commendation" drop. Named/rares should have an increased chance to spawn or drop the good items if their placeholder is constantly killed. So if a group is camping a spawn and killing it over and over again the % increases (up to a maximum). Once the group leaves and the placeholder stays alive the % starts decreasing over time back down to the minimum.

This also has the added effect of reducing the number of named/rares that auto spawn after server up since everything will be at the default minimum value.

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Caeden_sl said:

My solution that I'd fucking love even though I'm not a pvp guy. All uninstanced content including raids. But with no factions and free for all pvp (no looting though. I'm not that sadistic) if not under your guild tag.

Maybe even have alliances with a max of 3-4 guilds per alliance with destructible buildings but all gear is from mobs.

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Would love that, kinda ties into wanting the game to be more like EVE then EQ.

Roxby_sl said:

EQ1 forced you to get help from other people.Look at Spirit of Wolf, it was absolutely necessary, With only 3 classes getting it, you'd have to ask for help.

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Maybe it was very helpful for some activities (maybe even most activities, who doesnt like moving faster). Perhaps needed for a few things (kiting unsnared mobs?). But *absolutely necessary*?

tad10_sl said:

Tell me what scripted event was interesting the tenth time you ran that dungeon?

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Zul'whatever in Tanaris, holding the pyramid was always fun even after doing dozens of times.

LachiusTZ_sl said:

Instanced dungeons will kill EQN for me, I want to zone into a place and there be people there.

Not LFG / LFR / Sit at zone in trying to find a party to /clear zone for 2 or 3 hrs, having someone drop every time thier item drops, then having to reset / restart instead of plug in another player.

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Like that didnt happen in EQ without instances - zoning into Seb as a non-caster and waiting at entrance without getting a group and then following one along to get close enough to the exit to rush out alive. That's living the dream! Or getting a group, getting down to shrooms and your healer leaves. So you evac to entrance once you cannot handle respawns anymore and sit there with a couple lfg rangers and mages trying to chat up every cleric in level range on the server.

I dont actually like instancing, but I see the very huge upsides. So instead of demonizing instances altogether I'D like development to return to make actual dungeons. The path from entrance to exit in the aforementioned Sebilis would pass as a whole dungeon in todays MMOs, and that's just sad. The entire Blackrock was pretty awesome. Would have worked fine as non-instanced too, kinda like Sebilis with room for several groups and transitioning into harder content and finally raids on both the top (Spire, Nef's lair) and the bottom (MC).

Assuming you cannot get rid of instances due to content congestion concerns, my favorite way to use it would be sprawling public dungeons,everything Seb offered, but with small instanced off areas in many spots that really only have a few rooms. They just take you out of the public content for some challenging rooms to clear and the boss at the end. That way you can script that specific encounter however you like, but still have the public dungeon challenge with respawn, roamers and so on. I think no or little respawn pressure is one of the gimpiest parts of instancing, and that started with LDON way before WoW. You could always tell the noobs in early WoW deadmines by not watching out for the pretty tough patrol that spawns behind you. Wasnt full respawns but something at least.

Respawn balancing is one of the more obvious ways to add challenge and "death penalty without diving into corpse run designs, too. You dont pay attention, are undergeared or overconfident and wipe? There might not be a CR with ghosts, but you still lost that half hour of clearing to the boss.

Again EVE has it easy by being set in space, they can randomly create and replicate their "dungeons" without that being actual instances.

Instances aren't going anywhere. What needs to change is dungeon design from corridors to something more like Guk, Seb, pantheon of ancients etc. I'd even keep the rare spawns / respawning mobs and let people go at it as a viable way to level. Even shit mobs should drop good loot, bosses should drop great loot and rare mobs should drop epic loot.

Game companies these days are just so entrenched on the linear corridor design and quest hub to quest hub and its gotten really stale. They do it because its easy, predictable and they can script literally your every foot step in the game world. Amazing that they think that is fun isn't it?

Kedwyn_sl said:

Instances aren't going anywhere. What needs to change is dungeon design from corridors to something more like Guk, Seb, pantheon of ancients etc. I'd even keep the rare spawns / respawning mobs and let people go at it as a viable way to level. Even shit mobs should drop good loot, bosses should drop great loot and rare mobs should drop epic loot.

Game companies these days are just so entrenched on the linear corridor design and quest hub to quest hub and its gotten really stale. They do it because its easy, predictable and they can script literally your every foot step in the game world. Amazing that they think that is fun isn't it?

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Linear design isn't just a problem with dungeons. One of the main problems with SWTOR's overhyped story was the linear design. They offered many choices but in real fact the end was always the same. It didn't really matter in the long term what you did.

Choice, alternate paths, consequence and alternate endings are something that should happen in both dungeons and story quests. The reason mmo devs avoid it is because of the monumental amount of work that happens when you offer more than one real choice in a multiplayer game, and the crying of players who made the "wrong" choice. But that is the work that has to be done if new mmos want to truly transcend the dinosaurs of the past.

Every mmo out atm is nothing more than a copy of the others, nothing is different, except in a minor way. But the overall experience is always the same. Mmo's are a boring treadmill, choice has no consequence and you always know that in the end you will win even if you are asleep at the wheel.

tad10_sl said:

Tell me what scripted event was interesting the tenth time you ran that dungeon?

@Kreugan I think 12 camps and no FBSS sucks and I get your point but then again I remember my thirty+ runs to UBRS for the alchemy recipe that dropped off the General. It came up 2 or 3 times, each time I lost the roll to some asshole who was on his first or second run. Eventually I said fuck it.

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12 *drops*. It was a hell a lot more than 12 camps.

Draegan_sl said:

Not to defend WOW, but you're not fully geared until you are BiS which is Heroic Raids. You will definitely need help doing that.

But again, WOW has blurred the lines with all their shitty raid difficulties that people say, LFR is enough! Fuck it! and think they are now fully geared. It's dumb.

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/aside Seems like the thread is derailing into EQ v. WoW like so many other threads. Fuck two faction battlegrounds. The one plus with EQNext if it is "good" but "different" is this site will fracture into three: EQ diehards who hate EQNext for being too different from EQ and hate WoW for being WoW. WoWheads who hate EQ and EQNext equally. And EQNext fans who will diss both EQ and WoW for being either decrepit and/or boring.

Kreugen_sl said:

12 *drops*. It was a hell a lot more than 12 camps.

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Did you camp it on the last progression server?

qwerty_sl said:

You could watch TV in the downtime. But you couldn't watch TV during actual combat, that's the difference.

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Every time you say this stuff you prove you either didn't play WoW or were one of the worst players on whatever realm was blessed with you.

Not even in TBC was there any class beyond SSB locks that I think could look away and play and remotely keep up with damage or the harder hitting mobs in TBC dungeons. Those dungeons were full of pats, cc requirements, and required moderately skilled/geared players to pay attention. I was in T6 content and would still see occasional wipes in SLabs or Magister's Terrace heroic. Edit: Oh and prot pally...that was my pseudo MS though I raided as holy a LOT then. Once T5 geared you could fire consecrate and holy shield on most pulls and /dance and hold aggro. Warriors? They cried and went dps and LFtank Pally in instances like Slabs, MT, and SH. SH runs were awesome back when you had to do attunement for...SSC? or was it Mags? I forget. Man so many great memories. I still fly my Champion of the Naaru title but we sucked and didn't get into BT/MH until a month after they removed attunements and we never beat Kaelthas at all...yeah...we were a terribad guild in hindsight. I think we did beat more than 5/9, 4/5 though.

As far as instances, I like the idea of random rare spawns in instances. I thought BRD used to have a dude like that but I could be making that up in my mind.

I also think ZF was a fun instance..not even sure if it exists and that event reminds me a lot of the dual commander boss in the ICC heroic Halls of Reflection. Most of the more memorable and random scripted events involved adds spawning and the propensity for shit to go to hell fast without proper stuns, CC, or a tank that knew what the fuck to do. They fucked HoR though because every tank figured out the line of sight cubbies and made it /easy. Nevermind the content was already undertuned compared to the superb TBC heroics...that's a different debate not for this thread.