tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Sad to hear. But I guess most of the uberguilds are gone when I think about it.Conquest is dead bro
EQ Never
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Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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He still has a point though - they can put the hours required to make EQHD work into EQN (obviously for different stuff, just talking time invested). Using Tad's napkin math of 250k players and assuming its a good 100k that drop EQ1/2 for it, you get 150k new subs. I would be surprised if those additional hours do not get 150k more people into EQN just as well, with the bonus of also providing more stuff for the other 2 mill people in EQN.
If anything I would hope someone takes note of the social media uproar about this not being a hardcore trinity game and carries that torch to kickstarter. It wouldnt be Norrath then but it can sport the mechanics you are looking for.
Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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All I'm saying is that there has to be a happy medium between seven and ten rows of skills.
Raign
Golden Squire
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Point wasn't whether Wow was original, it was that their choice of ogre models was a cut and paste of orc models in other games. You can give whomever you want credit for that model but that sir is an orc not an ogre!
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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That's kinda the problem - I would say Tad's 250k are way on the low end. My own made-up estimate is 500k. But those 500k do not want the same EQHD, instead there's a half-dozen subgroups that would belittle the image of EQHD that the other players hold. if they make it their subs will spike to a mill or two out of sheer public curiosity, drop to those 500k within a few months, and past the 6 months mark they are at 150k or less with the other splinter groups back on EQmac and P99 and VG each calling EQHD a failure.
For example these are some of the things that would matter to me:
I wouldnt give damn about each class having similar ability to solo as long as getting the good stuff requires a group, and a group in general is more efficient at any of the content.
I do not want raid limits but my prefered amount of players needed to beat the raids would be around 30.
I would want first person view only.
I dont want bot armies/boxing.
I want crowd control to be important for grouping.
I'm sure all these statements have some EQHD fans nodding and other rustled.
Erronius
Macho Ma'am
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My argument is that the overuse of negative reinforcement is bad and a risky endeavor, but the very nature of people themselves means that there will be a broad range of what people would consider to be an "overuse" of negative reinforcement. I actually want negative reinforcement, but my feeling on the topic is that the way that EQ1 was designed that often it was more a punishment that an actual negative reinforcement, and in reality (maybe you've dealt with reality in a tangential fashion) people often tend to react to negative reinforcement in a way that "backfires". This is why people are cautioned when using negative reinforcement (as opposed to positive reinforcement).
I've even made a case both here and on FOH for negative reinforcement, however I think it should be used differently than how EQ1 did. It really is just that simple.
What I want to see is operant conditioning, specifically negative reinforcement, used in a fashion that encourages players to band together (social aspect) in order to remove a (potential) negative stimulus such as a KOS dragon. Death penalties are often a punishment and things like that can and do cause reactions that run counter to desired behavior. I actually didn't really mind XP penalties and even de-leveling, but some other things I think were a bit much. CRs for example, I didn't mind the system on paper, but the possibility of having your corpse be non-recoverable for an extended period of time if you weren't a class that could summon, couldn't find someone to summon, or had to wait for a long time before friends/guildies logged on to help....that was just bad.
If you look at what Elurin originally posted, one thing mentioned was travel time and the potential for it to take someone "hours" to get to a raid. Now, we've all debated "meaningful" travel time before but you can't be serious if it should take someone "hours" to get to a raid. We'll all have different opinions for how long is reasonable in an online game, but hours? Really?
iannis
Musty Nester
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Part of what made Classic EQ work (even beyond what lithose has already stated) is that you had hordes of players who all had loads of time to devote to it. An everquest server with 1,000 accounts on it is a vastly different experience than an everquest server with 15,000 accounts on it. Population density matters a whole lot (for reasons previously stated).
I'd actually probably play EqHD if they ever made it. There's no way I'd be hardcore, but I don't mind crazy slow ass games. But I don't want to bother with EqHD1000. That's just pointless. That's like playing tradewars against 1 other person. wtf.
The thing that makes that slow game fun is EqHD15000. And seriously, I think the only way that you get 15,000 on a game that slow is to put EqHD in a browser and pay facebook to host it.
Edit: Or you go for the minecraft crowd. It's so crazy it might actually work. The moba crowd is sort of the antithesis of the minecraft crowd though... so trying to go for them both at the same time is fucking bizzare at least, probably schitzophrenic.
I'd actually probably play EqHD if they ever made it. There's no way I'd be hardcore, but I don't mind crazy slow ass games. But I don't want to bother with EqHD1000. That's just pointless. That's like playing tradewars against 1 other person. wtf.
The thing that makes that slow game fun is EqHD15000. And seriously, I think the only way that you get 15,000 on a game that slow is to put EqHD in a browser and pay facebook to host it.
Edit: Or you go for the minecraft crowd. It's so crazy it might actually work. The moba crowd is sort of the antithesis of the minecraft crowd though... so trying to go for them both at the same time is fucking bizzare at least, probably schitzophrenic.
I think hours would actually work but you have to adjust your perspective in order to consider it. If it took hours to get to a raid, but everything else was like WoW, then yes that would be really bad. The idea of raid members all spending hours coming from scattered locations to a specific raid sounds awful.
But what about the idea of the world being so vast that entire guilds travelled together and would raid somewhere for a prolonged period of time. In between raids there are local things for solo/groups to satisfy themselves with, and so the guild essentially bases themselves around a certain raid location for, say, a week. Then, when it's time to raid somewhere else, somewhere really far away: the guild moves together, perhaps travelling more efficiently and safely as a big group (shared runspeed buffs, protection from any threats along the way, etc). In fact those hours of guild travel could even be considered a raid of sorts, a serveral hour event that takes up a weeknight's raid time. Add random events that can occur along the way when the game notices a large guild moving together. Make travel fun.
There's ideas like the caravan from Vanguard that would allow players who couldn't be online for the guild travel to be able to re-appear at wherever the guild caravan ended up when they do eventually log in.
I don't understand why the general consensus is that an EQ3 title wouldn't draw a large player base? I used to feel that way too, but the more i think about it, we played it for a long ass time, and 13 years later we still sit here cock in hand following everything about it. I'm sure there's an equivalent fan base for EQ3 in the newer generation of gamers as well.
iannis
Musty Nester
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For a month? Sure... it might do well for a month. It might to passably well for 2-3. Are you forgetting EQ attrition rates though? If you're one of the guys that stuck through till the bitter end that's a perfectly understandable thing to gloss over. If you weren't in a position in your guild where you were facefucked with attrition problems daily it's also a perfectly understandable thing to gloss over. Honestly, it is. But their account retention was like 15% or something?
How long do you think it would take the game to die. It's not even a hypothetical really, there's some relevant data to draw from with EqEmu's. And those guys are pretty much the hardest of the hardcore fans.
Negative reinforcement is generally the least effective manner to encourage learning. In essence, you're telling someone that they've done something wrong without giving them direct path to ameliorate their behavior.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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You cite "bleeding edge raiding" in WoW to illustrate that WoW presents more risks then EQ did? I didnt actually do VP when it was fresh but I think it would've been a contender on the risks/logistics of CR alone. That aside, a game isnt considered difficult and challenging or hardcore if a tiny bit of the content fits those criteria. I also think raiding is a bad comparison in when it comes to EQ1 because the game go easier the more you advanced through it and not harder. For example I was at risk of actually losing my corpse like a half-dozen times before lvl20, and *once* in the 4 years after lvl20.
So, EQN... does anyone care about immersion in the world, and do you think this new version of Norrath will be satisfying in this regard? For me its a big factor and I'm dubious for now because they are fucking up my nostalgia with too many radical diversions from the old lore. Less would've been more in this regard. I'm VERY curious about storybricks though, if the guys that made that are keeping their promises it's probably going to be awesome. Also I'm looking forward to alot of tears about people burning bridges through their actions. Gonna be interesting to find out of they stay true to their "life of consequences" motto.
I've said this before but the MMO genre is pretty much the only gaming genre that does not have a solid hardcore representation, which is odd considering how hardcore the original MMOs were (and how hardcore many people play relatively casual MMOs). In a world where DOTA 2 is rapidly becoming the most popular online game around, where Dark Souls was hugely popular, where Roguelikes are a constant inspiration for new games, and where hardcore mode is loved in games like path of exile and diablo... It boggles the mind that there has been no effort to do the same in the MMO world, outside of some really rough around the edges under-funded under-produced games.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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That's my point though, Valve are pretty much printing money with DOTA2. Roguelike-likes such as FTL have sold insanely well. It's so clear that there is a market for games that are hardcore, so why is it just the MMO industry that ignores this fact?
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
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Everything I've read so far seems to indicate there is no autoattack. Judging from my admittedly short stint in TOR, that is probably going to suck. Not even being able to finish something off with autoattacks in order to write something in group or guild because you have to keep pushing attacks to actually deal those last few hits was annoying.
As far as post-combat downtime is concerned I'd want WoW vanilla level downtime ideally, so a minute or so to drink/eat up (important - not a minute to run up to the next conveniently placed pack of mobs). They might have that, or they might not, havent seen any info either way.
iannis
Musty Nester
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There's plenty of games with no autoattack that don't suck. Even MMO genre games. Autoattack is just a persistent low order dot. As a mechanic it's dated as fuck.
For instance CoH didn't have autoattack, and once you got used to the rhythyms of combat chatting during combat was no big thang.
For instance CoH didn't have autoattack, and once you got used to the rhythyms of combat chatting during combat was no big thang.
During what period was their retention rate 15%?
Emulated servers are a poor way to judge a hypothetical EQ successor. Most people accept that the game was past its prime 10 years ago and those that do check the servers out quickly realize the game isn't fun when there are only 300 other players.