EQ Never

Dandai · Jun 8, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Levelling is needed for no other reason that to assign a numerical value to player power, so other players can recognize that player power for grouping purposes. If there are no numerical levels, how do I know the rogue in my party isn't doing the dps of a 'level' 10, when we want to explore a dungeon where the mobs are 'level' 50? Titles? Isn't tht just another form of 'leveling'? There needs to be levels just like there needs to be classes/jobs... Can you imagine forming a PVE group without them?

I won't argue with your contention that there needs to be some visible gain in power to differentiate a new character from a veteran character, but levels are merely one way of doing that, albeit very succinctly. There are plenty of games in which the player gains power but does not use a leveling system (or even an experience system for that matter). In some (most?) of those games your power is gained from your acquired items (and often the items will give you new skills). For example, in Don't Starve you never gain a single level, but you can gain items like:

Armor - 4 different tiers - Absorbs a % of all incoming damage
Melee weapons - 4 tiers - Each subsequent tier hits harder and sometimes has varying durability
Ranged weapons
1. Sleep dart - puts creatures to sleep
2. Blow dart - does ranged damage
3. Boomerang - has 10 charges of ranged damage
4. Fire dart - lights objects on fire (number of hits required to ignite varies by object/creature)
Special items
1. Pan flute - AOE sleep
2. Frost staff - Freezes creatures (number of hits to freeze varies by creature)
3. Amulet - Allows you to resurrect yourself when you die (death is permanent, otherwise)

Anyway, you get the idea. All of the items are equipped or used on a hot bar (that is also your inventory - not the best UI, but there it is). You gain no new abilities, health points, or any kind of stat, there are no levels, and yet a new character is significantly weaker than a veteran character.

Edit: I forgot to mention that there are resists and highly specialized gear too like a Beekeeper's Hood which doesn't protect you against normal attacks, but reduces like 90% of incoming damage from bees. There are also cold resist items (fluffy jackets, winter hats), and items that store heat while standing next to a campfire and allows you to traverse a wintery landscape for a longer period than you could otherwise.

My point is, I think an MMO with item based "leveling" has the potential to be very interesting andpossiblyflirt with the aforementioned sandbox term more intimately than any MMO to date. It also has the potential to really suck. I'd say it is much more likely to suck than to be awesome, but I'm a cynic at heart.

Mr Creed · Jun 8, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Levelling is needed for no other reason that to assign a numerical value to player power, so other players can recognize that player power for grouping purposes. If there are no numerical levels, how do I know the rogue in my party isn't doing the dps of a 'level' 10, when we want to explore a dungeon where the mobs are 'level' 50? Titles? Isn't tht just another form of 'leveling'? There needs to be levels just like there needs to be classes/jobs... Can you imagine forming a PVE group without them?

I can imagine that just fine. It would need a game designed for it of course, and players interacting to know the strength and weakness of each other or their class/builds. EVE doesnt have levels but, PVP aside, certainly has easy, medium and hard to kill PVE mobs. Planetside does have levels but they do not reflect anything but playtime, the real character development is in how you allocate your certs (which are essentially uncapped, think EVE skill points but gained through gameplay). And most importantly, GW2 has almost removed levels from their game despite being a theme park. They got cold feet in the end and kept the level score but the only reason for the levels is a bit of theme park guidance. They even dynamically uplevel players at nearly every special event like holiday content or living story.

I am very much for MMOs to go away from the level system mainly because "the game begins at 60" is really bad for the MMORPG genre imo. Take away levels or make them unlimited and make all the content you create interesting for your players. That ss a much better design then making 20-100 hours of throw-away content but then only making 3 raids and 5 dungeons for the majority of the time the players spend in the game.

About the theme park vs sandbox discussion, that's a topic best dropped for a few weeks because you all are already digging your trenches. EQ was a theme park, it was less obvious because most were new to the concept of an MMORPG, because the leveling was slow enough to not make racing to cap be the first goal when you step out of town, because content for different levels was placed side by side instead of strictly separated, etc etc. If you dont insist on an absolute division between sandbox and theme park but accept that you can have a game be one of it but still have tendencies or features of the other, then EQ was still a theme park, but with more nods towards sandbox style content then most/any of its successors.

So Smed, EVE Online set in the EQ world, make it so.

Convo · Jun 8, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
And here comes Convo with a comment that has nothing to do with the conversation. Congrats for being dumb.

Hah right! Ive had this conversation before. I feel no need to add to it. But I do like to point out the bias, I find it interesting you felt the need to respond. did you think I was referring to you!? DO you miss your poopsicle alt sometimes?

As far as traveling goes. I can relate to the people who don't want to spend a ton of time doing it but I'm torn because as a Wizard in EQ I didn't mind it. Obviously.. It was a means to make money for me plus a unique feature to my class. I think it comes back to risk/reward. If you're going to make traveling a big part of the game you need to make it as rewarding as possible within the game. Dynamic content helps with that but I think it can be expanded to other areas of the game like Trade.. If a player wants to go to the farthest northern area of the world and harvest some rare resources to sell for max profit in southern cities where the demand is higher, that would be an example of long travel times being worth it. To have long travel times just to have it isn't going to grab players anymore. It needs to be worked into the game properly. Classes, trade skills, economy all have to benefit from it. I think it can work. It just needs to intermingled properly with the rest of the game. For instance, people hate running back to group areas after they die. That was an issue for people in EQ who had long CR runs. To counter that maybe have a class or 2 able to give/sell some kind of port to corpse stone. It wont take you to your body in a dungeon but will port you to the entrance.

Quaid · Jun 8, 2013

Meh, be it a numerical level value, a title, a list of talents, or an outfit of equipment; potato, potato, tomato, tomato. You are still talking about a representation of progression for your character towards their 'max' possible power for the purpose of PVE encounter tuning/grouping.

I could care less what method SOE chooses to use to denote the power level of my character, however, I will say this;

'Level 50 Assassination Thief' LFG sounds a lot better than 'LFG - Dagger wielding melee dps with self haste, backstab, evasion, and chainmail blah blah blah blah wearing such and such gear yadda yadda'

etchazz · Jun 8, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Meh, be it a numerical level value, a title, a list of talents, or an outfit of equipment; potato, potato, tomato, tomato. You are still talking about a representation of progression for your character towards their 'max' possible power for the purpose of PVE encounter tuning/grouping.

I could care less what method SOE chooses to use to denote the power level of my character, however, I will say this;

'Level 50 Assassination Thief' LFG sounds a lot better than 'LFG - Dagger wielding melee dps with self haste, backstab, evasion, and chainmail blah blah blah blah wearing such and such gear yadda yadda'

exactly. every game has leveling, even if they disguise it someway else. the point is, you start out weak, and you get stronger as you play and progress through the game. regardless of what you want to call this, it is in fact, leveling. also, the bullshit about "the game starts at max level", anyone who says this obviously never played EQ because most of the fun in that game was actually leveling up. a game doesn't have to start at max level, if you actually make leveling up interesting, long, and fun (just like EQ did).

gogojira_sl · Jun 8, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
exactly. every game has leveling, even if they disguise it someway else. the point is, you start out weak, and you get stronger as you play and progress through the game. regardless of what you want to call this, it is in fact, leveling. also, the bullshit about"the game starts at max level", anyone who says this obviously never played EQ because most of the fun in that game was actually leveling up. a game doesn't have to start at max level, if you actually make leveling up interesting, long, and fun (just like EQ did).

Totally agree with the italicized part. When I hear "game starts at max level" I just assume the first part of your game is lackluster bullshit. In most experiences I'm right and quit before ever reaching the "real game."

Aaron · Jun 8, 2013

I would have loved to have experienced the stories I've heard from EQ, where being low level was not a hindrance. Is it also true that you could have mixed levels in raids and other such "end game" content? Cos that is what I would like in a game.

kudos · Jun 8, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
Extended travel only works with very populated worlds (servers). Using multiple-server tech like the traditional old school mmos, extended travel always fails because most people leave after a couple of months, making grouping and raiding difficult for those who stick around. But that doesn't mean you have to give up extended travel, devs just have to fucking plan ahead. The best solution has always been one single mega-server for everyone.
EvE is a perfect example of that. Spread everyone out on the same mega server, and make travel between distant areas time consuming. Splitting up your player base on multiple servers is the dumbest business decision ever made in mmo's. I'm surprised at how many mmo devs still follow that archaic model. EVERYONE should be on the same server, either using shards (glorified instances, GW1) or massive maps (EvE). I prefer the massive, spread everyone out, map tech like EvE, but shards accomplish the same thing.

Multiple server tech should have been dropped 10 years ago, it would have saved a ton of mmo's from perceived failure and ridicule. You don't have to announce to the world you are merging (FAIL) servers if everyone is on the same mega-server.

The best part of that is when you put great items or resources you need far away from player hubs and make it dangerous. Now you have a reason to make people travel but also give them a reward for taking the risk of going that far out into the world. EVE does this perfectly. It's totally possible with a fantasy MMO and you can include items and things for crafting.

Rezz · Jun 8, 2013

gogojira_sl said:
Totally agree with the italicized part. When I hear "game starts at max level" I just assume the first part of your game is lackluster bullshit. In most experiences I'm right and quit before ever reaching the "real game."

From Kunark on, EQ did indeed "start at max level" unless you were 100% new to the game/genre. Even then, more people tried to experience endgame content than people who were rabid about low/midgame content. At that point in the game's cycle, people were largely trying the game based upon recommendations from friends or reading reviews of people slaying dragons and shit (endgame content) and in most cases the friends were higher level. It indeed became a race to hit endgame, and that racing actually predated the release of WoW. As information spread, it became apparent that the game really did start at max level (until then, you could get mild sidegrades or statless gear in most cases. At endgame, you had tiers of progressively more powerful gear that actually added real power to your character. This information became widespread during kunark and beyond, while during vanilla and the dark ages of the internet it was not.)

And for aaron: No, it is not true. There most certainly was level restrictions on content for the most part, it just wasn't a hard cap in some cases (Except you know.. the planes in Vanilla/Kunark that had a minimum level requirement, or Old Sebilis, or....) There were very small windows of time that you could bring low level players into higher end content, but that changed dramatically and quickly into the game's cycle. If the sole purpose was to twink (overgear) the lower level player? You could do it. But outside of putting extremely shitty buffs that meant little to nothing or if you were specifically a cleric for CH, you were not contributing if you were more than a couple of levels lower than content. Most games allow you to be a level or two behind cap before engaging in end game content. You most certainly are not contributing as much as someone at cap, but you can do stuff. EQ was identical in this regard, so if you don't like modern games and how they handle endgame level ranges, you would not like EQ and how they handled endgame level ranges.

The -only- thing EQ did that would allow for people to bring the undergeared/underleveled to it was simply not having participant caps on raids. Which they then started doing when they added instanced content in PoP and from then on it was no longer "bring whoever!" for most content. The effect would be, that the undergeared/underleveled would basically die quickly and often due to resists and the way levels/skills were calculated, while everyone else would contribute normally.

If you have ever heard the term "zerging" in regards to mmorpg strategies, this is effectively the foundation. Throw enough bodies at it to eventually win. This worked in some cases as the undergeared/suboptimal leveled would still do 1-2 points of damage each (extreme exaggeration, but fairly accurate in the long run) before succumbing, thus doing more damage than would have been done if they were not there.

But if you are refering to the ability for people who were substantially lower level to contribute effectively to endgame content in EQ? No, not the case at all.

kudos · Jun 8, 2013

It was also nice being able to use an item possibly for 2 expansions because it was just that good. Sure there was better but you didn't feel it hindered you that much either.

etchazz · Jun 8, 2013

aaron_sl said:
I would have loved to have experienced the stories I've heard from EQ, where being low level was not a hindrance. Is it also true that you could have mixed levels in raids and other such "end game" content? Cos that is what I would like in a game.

you really couldn't mix low levels and max levels together in raids (i mean, i guess literally you could but you wouldn't), but what made EQ special was that the low levels, mid levels and max levels were all mixed together in different areas of the game. it was not completely segregated like games of today. you had high level areas/dungeons in low level zones, and vice versa. because of this, the game was well blended and you saw lots of other high level players interacting with lower level players. also, the game just felt more fun even right out of the gate at level 1 than any other game i've played since. there was a sense of danger just leaving the starting city and starting to explore, even if you didn't wander that far off. i remember leaving felwithe and trying to keep my distance from a skeleton while i burned it down and finally realizing "fuck, i can't find the trail and i don't know which way is the city entrance." even though i wasn't even that far away, it felt like i was because there was no map to bring up showing me where i was and which way to go. it made you pay attention to little things like location even at a very low level. it may not sound like much, but even doing something as simple as traveling the path from felwithe to kelethin truly felt epic, and i was probably level 6 when i made that journey.

Dr Neir · Jun 8, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Levelling is needed for no other reason that to assign a numerical value to player power, so other players can recognize that player power for grouping purposes. If there are no numerical levels, how do I know the rogue in my party isn't doing the dps of a 'level' 10, when we want to explore a dungeon where the mobs are 'level' 50? Titles? Isn't tht just another form of 'leveling'? There needs to be levels just like there needs to be classes/jobs... Can you imagine forming a PVE group without them?

I agree with others on removing lvls. How do you tell a new lvl capped toon vs someone that has been at cap for awhile? You cant use lvls as a point of reference if both are the same lvl. It doesn't add up and hasnt in some time. It a glaring time sink slapped in your face.

Point being, grinding. Lvls or other. Myself like many others don't like to invest time in throw away gear and invest hours and effort for nothing. Some claim lvls are something but really it isnt. Its just a time sink to keep the user playing. Much like coin-op games putting in flash kill points to eat quarters. I would prefer a more structured way to keep players interested.
Quests and tasks dont need lvls, they can be teirs on faction, connections and favor.

I think many games can take a page from Eve. How about plans/BPO/BPC for weapons, armor, spells, buildings and etc. Same deal. Research, invention and chance to lose your gear on death. This would promote team work, land territories, crafting and trading. Skills being trained over time on/offline. Gear and items being replaced from crafting and NPCs.

Much as I hate PVP, can you image if say East Commons was setup like a region with each little camp spot being systems to allow guilds to build and control spot within those areas and lock it down. Certain spots being worth more due to better resources. The EC tunnel being Jita! The core of the game would be over control and not levels and useless crap.
Raids, Sleepers and DED sites. Dropped items are crafting mats and plans.

I have mentioned this before but If you could merge SWG, Eve and Darkfall together and drop the pvp thing I would love it.
I really would like to see the SWG adjustable mats affecting the completed item in all games.

Quaid · Jun 8, 2013

EVE's levelling system is far more of a time sink thank EQ's ever was... And if that's how you obtain skills in EQnext you can count this guy out.

Also, that game's system works just fine in a predominantly pvp environment, and I am not convinced it would in a PVE one. If someone could make a compelling argument against levelling in a MMO, I am more than open to hearing it... But so far it sounds to me like BBBBUT I WANNA SLAY THE DRAGON NOW!...

kudos · Jun 8, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
EVE's levelling system is far more of a time sink thank EQ's ever was... And if that's how you obtain skills in EQnext you can count this guy out.

Also, that game's system works just fine in a predominantly pvp environment, and I am not convinced it would in a PVE one. If someone could make a compelling argument against levelling in a MMO, I am more than open to hearing it... But so far it sounds to me like BBBBUT I WANNA SLAY THE DRAGON NOW!...

This is where TESO comes in and makes skill based leveling popular in modern MMO's. I can't wait to see how it plays out.

etchazz · Jun 8, 2013

Dr Neir_sl said:
I agree with others on removing lvls. How do you tell a new lvl capped toon vs someone that has been at cap for awhile? You cant use lvls as a point of reference if both are the same lvl. It doesn't add up and hasnt in some time. It a glaring time sink slapped in your face.

Point being, grinding. Lvls or other. Myself like many others don't like to invest time in throw away gear and invest hours and effort for nothing. Some claim lvls are something but really it isnt. Its just a time sink to keep the user playing. Much like coin-op games putting in flash kill points to eat quarters. I would prefer a more structured way to keep players interested.
Quests and tasks dont need lvls, they can be teirs on faction, connections and favor.

I think many games can take a page from Eve. How about plans/BPO/BPC for weapons, armor, spells, buildings and etc. Same deal. Research, invention and chance to lose your gear on death. This would promote team work, land territories, crafting and trading. Skills being trained over time on/offline. Gear and items being replaced from crafting and NPCs.

Much as I hate PVP, can you image if say East Commons was setup like a region with each little camp spot being systems to allow guilds to build and control spot within those areas and lock it down. Certain spots being worth more due to better resources. The EC tunnel being Jita! The core of the game would be over control and not levels and useless crap.
Raids, Sleepers and DED sites. Dropped items are crafting mats and plans.

I have mentioned this before but If you could merge SWG, Eve and Darkfall together and drop the pvp thing I would love it.
I really would like to see the SWG adjustable mats affecting the completed item in all games.

you arguments are completely retarded. the entire point of any game is a time sink. they want you to play the game, hence, a time sink. whether it's gaining levels or gaining skills/items or doing quests, everything involved in playing a video game is a time sink. perhaps you just don't like video games? otherwise, i don't understand your argument at all. levels in EQ weren't in any way a "waste of time." each level group had plenty of areas to explore and dungeons to crawl, and weapons, armor, items in EQ meant more than any MMO since. there were truly rare items in EQ even early on that gave players a distinct advantage in leveling up and made them valuable as fuck and worth pursuing (mana stone anyone?). you didn't out level your items every other day like you do in modern MMO's. in EQ, a lot of the items you collected lasted you for 10 levels or longer. just because every MMO since has trivialized everything below max level and made that part of the game irrelevant, doesn't mean that's the only way of doing things. EQ proved this by giving its players meaningful content and a fun game from level 1 the whole way up to max level and beyond.

Quaid · Jun 8, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
you arguments are completely retarded. the entire point of any game is a time sink. they want you to play the game, hence, a time sink. whether it's gaining levels or gaining skills/items or doing quests, everything involved in playing a video game is a time sink. perhaps you just don't like video games? otherwise, i don't understand your argument at all. levels in EQ weren't in any way a "waste of time." each level group had plenty of areas to explore and dungeons to crawl, and weapons, armor, items in EQ meant more than any MMO since. there were truly rare items in EQ even early on that gave players a distinct advantage in leveling up and made them valuable as fuck and worth pursuing (mana stone anyone?). you didn't out level your items every other day like you do in modern MMO's. in EQ, a lot of the items you collected lasted you for 10 levels or longer. just because every MMO since has trivialized everything below max level and made that part of the game irrelevant, doesn't mean that's the only way of doing things. EQ proved this by giving its players meaningful content and a fun game from level 1 the whole way up to max level and beyond.

Pretty sure I kept a Goblin Gazughi Ring on my Druid for something like 3 years outside of raiding...

Mr Creed · Jun 8, 2013

The only thing I see TESO do is raise WoW sub numbers a bit when the dissapointed masses crawl back there 6 weeks after release...

Anyway, why cut leveling: Essentially it has been decimated to it's bare minimum already, waiting for a mercy killing. From taking a substantial time to max level (EQ) to faster (WoW), and since then ever more faster with each year, and ending at a long weekend to cap in most recent games. At the same time all old games have removed or eased it substantially too, first and foremost WoW where if I resubbed I would get a lvl80(?) character that has basic gear and only needs to do the last 5 (or 10?) levels.

But theres still the half-dozen or so dungeons that barely get touched, 80% or more of the game's zones dedicated to it contentwise, all the writing (great or not) for the quests etc - a total waste of development in a "game begins at level cap" setup. Leveling and the content designed for it are wasting resources, and the fabled endgame is woefully lacking in content. So cut the leveling, take those resources and launch with 4 tiers of raids/endgame dungeons instead of one tier. Its still the same amount of content, but its used alot more if you tie endgame activities into it instead of using it for xp and incremental 'replaced-with-the-hour' item upgrades.

Quaid · Jun 8, 2013

Mr Creed_sl said:
The only thing I see TESO do is raise WoW sub numbers a bit when the dissapointed masses crawl back there 6 weeks after release...

Anyway, why cut leveling: Essentially it has been decimated to it's bare minimum already, waiting for a mercy killing. From taking a substantial time to max level (EQ) to faster (WoW), and since then ever more faster with each year, and ending at a long weekend to cap in most recent games. At the same time all old games have removed or eased it substantially too, first and foremost WoW where if I resubbed I would get a lvl80(?) character that has basic gear and only needs to do the last 5 (or 10?) levels.

But theres still the half-dozen or so dungeons that barely get touched, 80% or more of the game's zones dedicated to it contentwise, all the writing (great or not) for the quests etc - a total waste of development in a "game begins at level cap" setup. Leveling and the content designed for it are wasting resources, and the fabled endgame is woefully lacking in content. So cut the leveling, take those resources and launch with 4 tiers of raids/endgame dungeons instead of one tier. Its still the same amount of content, but its used alot more if you tie endgame activities into it instead of using it for xp and incremental 'replaced-with-the-hour' item upgrades.

Very fair, but you still haven't mentioned how one makes distinction between players of different power levels. Is raid_dragon_01 the same difficulty as raid_dragon_02? If not, does an individual need certain skills or gear to take on raid_dagon_02? If yes, isn't this just repackaged levelling...?

Quaid · Jun 8, 2013

Also, I think what we need to ask ourselves why players want to reach endgame in an MMO. Is it because raiding is fun? In my opinion, it certainly is NOT.

People want to reach endgame for one reason: epeen.

They want to stand in ECtunnel, or Ironforge, or where the fuck ever, and be noticed. How does one do this if the whole game is endgame and there are no scrubs to show off to?

(I'm only half joking lol)

Abefroman · Jun 8, 2013

I want trains back. I loved me some trains.

Also would love non-instanced dungeons and raids on pvp servers. You want meaningful objectives for world pvp? Problem solved with that right there.

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