Holy crap WALL:
EVE's levelling system is far more of a time sink thank EQ's ever was... And if that's how you obtain skills in EQnext you can count this guy out.
Also, that game's system works just fine in a predominantly pvp environment, and I am not convinced it would in a PVE one. If someone could make a compelling argument against levelling in a MMO, I am more than open to hearing it... But so far it sounds to me like BBBBUT I WANNA SLAY THE DRAGON NOW!...
Sidestep about EVE here. The Model in place for Eve is good and how it is applied is very much PVP. I will agree that how CCP executes this model does fits but not great and would suck if placed within EQ/WOW type of game which I think if you did do it, I would compare it to Darkfall.
We can argue all day that CCP could get triple the sub numbers if they would curb the PVP a lot and bump the NPC/PVE pirate spawns and create a better challenge for players and increase the danger from NPC/PVEs in the loss of ships and equipment to create more turnover in created stuff. At current, large Corps sit with their thumb up their ass waiting for something, ships arent being replace as much as when a HUGE loss of gear happens like a WAR.
The point, if you apply this model without pvp or limit pvp and keep the core of the game with NPC/PVE as the PVP substitute, it will fit with EQ/WOW based games while allowing everyone work for what they get. The lvling scheme and epeen raiding has been trivalized and boring over the years. Old EQ or WOW, ya it was fun or boring depending on class or guild. BUT, with that you can still have raiding, hense the DED and WH reference. Guessing I need to state what that is for those that dont know what that is or have not played EVE. Its raiding basically, you show up, there are mobs, you kill and loot.
What I suggest is the crafting BPO/BPC, offline skills and no lvls. The fundamental game play with PVP side of it replace with NPC/PVE automation. I know many like the grind and raiding. I like crafting and exploring. I want EQN to have some meat with meaning in crafting, I enjoy fighting and exploring. I tire of days when I hit a zone, see the local faction, grind it and then out lvl the zone and find that all the hard work I did in that zone doesnt carry over to the next area I am pushed into.
Hope this clears thing up on what I am trying to suggest.
you arguments are completely retarded. the entire point of any game is a time sink. they want you to play the game, hence, a time sink. whether it's gaining levels or gaining skills/items or doing quests, everything involved in playing a video game is a time sink. perhaps you just don't like video games? otherwise, i don't understand your argument at all. levels in EQ weren't in any way a "waste of time." each level group had plenty of areas to explore and dungeons to crawl, and weapons, armor, items in EQ meant more than any MMO since. there were truly rare items in EQ even early on that gave players a distinct advantage in leveling up and made them valuable as fuck and worth pursuing (mana stone anyone?). you didn't out level your items every other day like you do in modern MMO's. in EQ, a lot of the items you collected lasted you for 10 levels or longer. just because every MMO since has trivialized everything below max level and made that part of the game irrelevant, doesn't mean that's the only way of doing things. EQ proved this by giving its players meaningful content and a fun game from level 1 the whole way up to max level and beyond.
Yes, long quests for great items. This doesnt need lvls. Its a chain, even SWG had themeparks with this. SWG didnt really have lvls in a way. Could Argue there was lvl 50 for those maxing their points. But it was mainly a point choice setup.
EQ had a good amount of Q-chains and many ppl I knew grinded out to max or at the least enough over lvl to solo it then hit the chain to fly thru it. The T-sink was lvls in the way that lengthened the quest. This system has many problems to it and we all just dealed with it but should we really keep dealing with it?
The problem with it:
First is the chain, others helping that are not in the same spot as you will have to wait and redo many parts of it again if they bypass their next first in order to catch up on their own chain. This cant be changed.
Second is the ability, meaning can you do the quest with enough power to complete or get the help to complete, this you can get help with but it depends on the next point....
Third the lvl, if you need help or want to help they will need to be the same lvl as you, or over lvl to be effective.
Remove the lvl and you are left with the Chain and Ability. This allows more ppl to help you out if needed. I remember old EQ and having to help guildies out on things and many others wanting to help but couldnt due to lvl. On the flip side I also had WOW friend not wanting to lift a finger to help me out as I was lvling up. Got the standard, screw that quest. Stop wasting your time with that crap and lvl up. Better gear at max!
Point to your quote is this, T-sinks can be many things. I dont think in todays MMO market lvls should be one of them. I did a ton of other things in EQ. I often took many long breaks from lvling to craft and explore and do some quests. I loved many of the quests it had, just would hit a wall with lvls often. Part of this point is within this quote:
The only thing I see TESO do is raise WoW sub numbers a bit when the dissapointed masses crawl back there 6 weeks after release...
Anyway, why cut leveling: Essentially it has been decimated to it's bare minimum already, waiting for a mercy killing. From taking a substantial time to max level (EQ) to faster (WoW), and since then ever more faster with each year, and ending at a long weekend to cap in most recent games. At the same time all old games have removed or eased it substantially too, first and foremost WoW where if I resubbed I would get a lvl80(?) character that has basic gear and only needs to do the last 5 (or 10?) levels.
But theres still the half-dozen or so dungeons that barely get touched, 80% or more of the game's zones dedicated to it contentwise, all the writing (great or not) for the quests etc - a total waste of development in a "game begins at level cap" setup. Leveling and the content designed for it are wasting resources, and the fabled endgame is woefully lacking in content. So cut the leveling, take those resources and launch with 4 tiers of raids/endgame dungeons instead of one tier. Its still the same amount of content, but its used alot more if you tie endgame activities into it instead of using it for xp and incremental 'replaced-with-the-hour' item upgrades.
Using the quote to point out the problem with lvls. Dev time with 80% game, items, mobs, quests, dungeons, zone research and creation time just to have it sit and waste away. Why?.......Drums please......for Levels as T-sinks.
Dont want to say ppl are being dense but calling a duck a duck here.
I get it, lvls are something to hang on to as an achievement but useless and not needed. Waiting for the masses to open their eyes about it. If the only argument about needing lvls in a game is for T-sinks and Player Power. Then I guess faction grinds, researching Q-chains for unlocks, quest/kill unlocks, skill use, timed RL unlocks and gear stats haven't been invented yet to be a substitute for lvls?
If lvls are the HOLY crap gotta have end all thing ppl can't let go of. I would like lvls to be a sum of things. Similar to Gear score in WOW, this would be a sort of arbitrary number to show power, faction and time or close to G-score with total of gear power. Not sure how that would translate or if it would even work. I think Defiance has something close to this on some lvl. I think this could be the thing others have been wanting with the non lvl deal. A way to see how powerful someone is.
This would be a weird system, one sec you are "lvl 10" with all rusty gear and then "lvl 20" a sec later after equipping all iron gear. Lvl isnt something you grind but what you wear or have unlocked with quests or faction but may not be from power. What I remember, Secret World sort of has this but is mainly just Skills. It also has no lvls if I remember right from Beta.
Even reverse lvls like bonus in titles can work without lvls and do so very well. Example: more you kill X creature the bigger the bonus % to hit against that type of mob. This is very nice but I havent see that much done with it in games in general which is a shame. Same with resist gear and bane items, these have been left behind due to player not wanting to carry all those different types of items. Counter to this is having pack mule NPC and housing that holds those items for you to pickup. I liked the SWG and EQ2 housing idea with some of the furniture actually being usable in storage with limits. This also goes with taxes, more you use the more cost..etc.
This would work again if things like investments to player's local area was done. Travel time would be from the player's house or guild hall to the outside wall area to take on raids, dungeons and quests. Just because the known game world is vast doesnt mean you have to goto each area. (EVE and old school EQ). There were many zones that you didnt need or want to goto but for X thing. Towns should be the same. Only ppl wanting to travel vast distances would be haulers, venders and the rare mission conquest fighters looking to move around. I know this is a weird concept for ppl but works well. I missed 8+ starting zones with their own eco-habitat. But this time it should allow for ppl not wanting to move to other areas but to be with friends or change guilds and give time to build up the area and unlock that area's quests and roaming mob bands and merchant trains.
Think the web game Travian would best describe the idea just in first/third person view when it comes to dropping a house/Townhall/guildhall on a static spot in the world world and it kicks off local automated tribes and content. Etc ETc..hoping the point hits home with it here.
The way it has been looking for the past few years, lvls are on the way out or at the least changed to mean something else or in disguise of old lvling schemes. Defiance, Secret World, Darkfall, EVE, Planetside 2 and Dust514 to name some off the top of my head.