EQ Never
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Sandbox MMO IMO. An open non instanced world. Actions have equal consequences. An economy that helps shape the world. Resources contribute to said economy. Just like a world certain area's have certain resources controlling them means money and power..
Laura
Lord Nagafen Raider
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I see no reason in creating empty worlds. Vanguard and EQ had this mistake.
Look at the Karanas, empty space that serves no purpose. You do have to have that in the game (empty spaces that serves no purpose) but less than what we're used to in MMORPGs.
If Dungeons density are better than that of EQ and Vanguard, you can create a smaller world but richer and more interesting which will a) reduce traveling time and b) still keeping the world as instance-free as possible since you do have plenty of area of interests/dungeons for players to explore.
In other words, instead of creating zones with no dungeons in them like Butcherblock Mountains (why there are no dungeons there) we need to create a perfectly balanced world rich with content and not just too big for no reason.
As for your second point that players will collide in the best zones of that level (Lguk for instance) this is something that also needs to be balanced. There are many ways to approach that issue (for instance making almost identical itemization in terms of power in more than one dungeon of the same level range placed in different regions of the world). Example: Haste item 20% in Continent A dungeon X, Haste item 19% +1 dex in Continent B dungeon Y, Haste item 22% but very difficult to attain compared to the other two in Continent C dungeon Z.
Be great if they could some how come up with a system that balances XP throughout all zones. The more people in a zone the lower the XP gain become. The less people the higher. Making people slowly migrate between zones eventually finding a spot they are happy with whilst promoting travel and social interaction. Matter I really like that idea.
You could even do it for loot drops. More people in a zone the less chance of dropping etc etc.
You could even do it for loot drops. More people in a zone the less chance of dropping etc etc.
zzeris
King Turd of Shit Hill
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I disagree because no one knows the perfect ratios to make 'a perfectly balanced world.' Smaller worlds means content will be eaten through even faster. I could be wrong but it sounds like you want an amusement park game again where every 5 feet, there's another ride. WHEE! I do agree that having more dungeons is better but there could also be other forms of enticement. There will always be places that are less desirable to gain rewards but that doesn't mean you reduce your scope or pack in more rides to keep the kiddies happy.
If you make interesting places and spread out the population, then it's possible to make large worlds where people can find things to do months later. Slow down the experience gains so that players have to explore your world. No need for everyone to be 60 in six weeks and leaving a pile of chores and a raid as the reward. That seems like a job instead of a lovingly crafted world. I agree about your second point.
Convo
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 8,761
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I think with Dynamic content the empty worlds will be way less of an issue.
As far as slower progression.. I'm all for it but it does have to be done in a smart way. Just slowing up the XP bar for the sake of it, isn't enough. You will never stop the grinder but for the rest of the folks they could make an engaging game at all turns. Spreading things out is my preferred setup world for sure. Remove quest icons and let players explore towns/city's for possible quest. Make class and race specific quest throughout the world. My interaction with a NPC should not be the same as every other player(I think that will be a part of EQN.) I don't always want my quest/reward to be obvious.. If my class trainer keep mentioning an area of the world, I should probably go and explore it to find out why they brought it up. Stop with the collection/repetitive BS. Just put in some quality chain quest.
Point being the game needs to do a better job of distracting you during the leveling process. We should be coming across/stumbling onto cool stuff like new spells/abilities and clickies throughout our journey not just always at set points. I want to be in a dungeon and have a random spell drop that I didn't even know existed. Issues of the past should be resolved utilizing the game and it's community. Travel, CR's, etc could all be tweaked in the slightest without damaging their intended purposes. Allow certain classes to summon/rezz but also add some crafter stuff that players can go and purchase as a last resort or keep with them since the world is a dangerous place. Hell call it a survival pack because you'll want to have one with you when you venture too far from town on your own.
As far as slower progression.. I'm all for it but it does have to be done in a smart way. Just slowing up the XP bar for the sake of it, isn't enough. You will never stop the grinder but for the rest of the folks they could make an engaging game at all turns. Spreading things out is my preferred setup world for sure. Remove quest icons and let players explore towns/city's for possible quest. Make class and race specific quest throughout the world. My interaction with a NPC should not be the same as every other player(I think that will be a part of EQN.) I don't always want my quest/reward to be obvious.. If my class trainer keep mentioning an area of the world, I should probably go and explore it to find out why they brought it up. Stop with the collection/repetitive BS. Just put in some quality chain quest.
Point being the game needs to do a better job of distracting you during the leveling process. We should be coming across/stumbling onto cool stuff like new spells/abilities and clickies throughout our journey not just always at set points. I want to be in a dungeon and have a random spell drop that I didn't even know existed. Issues of the past should be resolved utilizing the game and it's community. Travel, CR's, etc could all be tweaked in the slightest without damaging their intended purposes. Allow certain classes to summon/rezz but also add some crafter stuff that players can go and purchase as a last resort or keep with them since the world is a dangerous place. Hell call it a survival pack because you'll want to have one with you when you venture too far from town on your own.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,380
- 276
If we're still theorycrafting about making an MMORPG sandbox without instances, then there has to be as much space as possible. Housing space was problematic in UO, it wont be better now that the genre has gone mainstream. One nice thing about WoW were all the little caves in pretty much every zone. In the WoW game model they became boring predictable but in a more open world they could serve as xp spots for a singe group or a duo (in WoW you quickly learned there are only like 2 map layouts and you dont need to go in unless you have the quest thats surely around to point you there).
I think you focus too much on the sandbox and neglect the RPG part, too. Let each character become to sum of his journey and not just the last 2 months, like newer item treadmill games do. The +gooder eqipment during the leveling process is utterly pointless as is, any stats on those items are either negligible, replaced within the hour or on a dozen nearly identical items within the same content range. Nobody cares about them.
On the other hand if you only give a class the basic abilities easily (assuming you go with set classes and not freeform like UO/EVE). Have only few skills in training academies in the cities and make players *play* the game for the other skills. Gain the trust of the old wizard to be granted a scroll to learn his unique version of fireball, seek out the grandmaster monk to learn his special technique, find the necronomicon and learn that rare spell, help the town guard against the invasion to train in their ranks for new abilities, faction up with the remote elf village to learn under their elders, etc etc, Endless possibilities, really. You can have slightly different versions of the base skills as long as the power level is similar, as well as epic spells you have to really work for but that are worth it. As long as the game goes with a limited available actions model like GW1/2 or D3, the characters dont gain more pure power, they just gain more options. Kinda like learning more skills in EVE allows you to fly more ships, slot more equipment etc, but you cannot bring all that to bear at once. Another angle is that you can have class skills, archetype skills and even skills everyone can master. Ideally I'd like to see the EVE skill model, time based, but learning the "skill book" through game play instead of just getting it off the market.
That way old content also stays interesting to newer players instead of skipping past it asap, and for old players to go back for a different version of fireball eventually because they want to catch them all, or changed their preferences or whatever. nobody goes back to old content for stats (people do for skins though, a second angle to keep old content interesting). Throw in a low power curve or GW2 style level-downscaling (or a system without levels) and your growing world stays much more relevant then in the WoW/EQ/clones model.
I think you focus too much on the sandbox and neglect the RPG part, too. Let each character become to sum of his journey and not just the last 2 months, like newer item treadmill games do. The +gooder eqipment during the leveling process is utterly pointless as is, any stats on those items are either negligible, replaced within the hour or on a dozen nearly identical items within the same content range. Nobody cares about them.
On the other hand if you only give a class the basic abilities easily (assuming you go with set classes and not freeform like UO/EVE). Have only few skills in training academies in the cities and make players *play* the game for the other skills. Gain the trust of the old wizard to be granted a scroll to learn his unique version of fireball, seek out the grandmaster monk to learn his special technique, find the necronomicon and learn that rare spell, help the town guard against the invasion to train in their ranks for new abilities, faction up with the remote elf village to learn under their elders, etc etc, Endless possibilities, really. You can have slightly different versions of the base skills as long as the power level is similar, as well as epic spells you have to really work for but that are worth it. As long as the game goes with a limited available actions model like GW1/2 or D3, the characters dont gain more pure power, they just gain more options. Kinda like learning more skills in EVE allows you to fly more ships, slot more equipment etc, but you cannot bring all that to bear at once. Another angle is that you can have class skills, archetype skills and even skills everyone can master. Ideally I'd like to see the EVE skill model, time based, but learning the "skill book" through game play instead of just getting it off the market.
That way old content also stays interesting to newer players instead of skipping past it asap, and for old players to go back for a different version of fireball eventually because they want to catch them all, or changed their preferences or whatever. nobody goes back to old content for stats (people do for skins though, a second angle to keep old content interesting). Throw in a low power curve or GW2 style level-downscaling (or a system without levels) and your growing world stays much more relevant then in the WoW/EQ/clones model.
Dandai
<WoW Guild Officer>
- 5,907
- 4,483
While I suppose they weren'tdirectlyattached to Butcherblock, both Kedge and Unrest were in the (tiny) Cauldron zone linked to BB. I don't think giving every area a dungeon would necessarily be a good way to make your game feel diverse and awesome, though.
I'm inclined to agree that WK and NK could've used some help in the "interesting" department, but they weren't completely wasted space (I left out SK because SK was the most obviously interesting of the three with Splitpaw, Quillmane, the Aviary, etc). WK had the werewolf, a cyclops camp, barbarian village (fishbone earring!), and NK had the huge bridge, a zone full of griffons and elephants, druids, etc. Those things might not have interested you, but what if you were some evil necromancer hellbent on ridding the world of druids? NK would've been awesome for you.
I have a feeling they thought a lot more players were going to be play and figured the space may be needed.
Man, when I played on the pvp servers, the karanas took on a new life. For some reason they attracted a lot more attention there, because people used them to evade crowded areas. I memorized pretty much every square inch of those zones, and spent a lot of time playing hit-and-run there. I loved those zones because of how massive they were, and provided a lot of opportunity to attack unsuspecting travelers. I think having huge zones like the karanas are awesome when there are interesting events going on (Anyone remember the swarm?) and on pvp servers since it lets people have kind of an out of the way base of operations for some level ranges. In PVE, they get overlooked entirely.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 4,864
- 6,821
My first toon was a SK based out of Qeynos. Spent a lot of time leveling up in the area, the Karanas included. Back then there were plenty of players in those zones. Eventually did the epic journey to Freeport like everyone else, but I never felt that they were neglected zones back then.
It was later after Luclin was released that they became more out of the way and depopulated. But that had more to do with everyone being high level. I played on the progression servers a while back after they started up. It was cool to see those zones active again.
It was later after Luclin was released that they became more out of the way and depopulated. But that had more to do with everyone being high level. I played on the progression servers a while back after they started up. It was cool to see those zones active again.
Dyvim
Bronze Knight of the Realm
- 1,420
- 195
Nah some people took the epic journey from Freeport to Qeynos, like my monk pal ;-)
I traveled with him, cause i should provide invis to us to escape potential griffons and such.
Being a darki i just prayed it wouldnt drop on our way through high pass, hah well took us almost 3 hours and i had nothing to gain, but one of the most memorable times in an mmorpg, ah good times.
I traveled with him, cause i should provide invis to us to escape potential griffons and such.
Being a darki i just prayed it wouldnt drop on our way through high pass, hah well took us almost 3 hours and i had nothing to gain, but one of the most memorable times in an mmorpg, ah good times.
Yeah exactly, I leveled a war in the karanas on the regular to avoid combat, and to snipe casters w/ my wurmy/shim partisan combo
Laura I usually agree with your posts, but not that one about the Karanas. Every bit of space in EQ was required and used well as far as I'm concerned. If anything, the world was too small. The Humans started in Freeport and yet the Dark Elves started in Nektulos and Neriak which was only 1 zone away - how weirdly cozy!
Qeynos was supposed to be a distant settlement, and really, it was only the Karanas which made it distant. The hobbits were only half a zone away from Highpass, so it was the big Karana plains beyond that which added some scale to the game. And they were also the only really good sized zones in the game at that point. The few other big zones like OOT and Butcherblock Mountains or whatever but they tended to have so many impassable walls and expanses of water that you couldn't really get a good feel for the scale. But once you got out to the Karanas, they were big open plains and that's what they were supposed to be. Loved by Druids and Bards who could whiz about them without fear or bumping in to zone walls or anything, kiters paradise.
Like I said, I thought travel in EQ was perfect if you were a Bard, and never been better in any other game. Once you've run through a zone at 100mph, nothing else compares. The only issue with EQ is that at level 10 or whatever, when you spent your whole life in Kelethin and then they expected you to travel to Qeynos or Odus for a couple of spells, that was a hell of a journey to make as a lone low level bard. I know cuz I did it. The only boats were also a total pain because they were too infrequent, too slow, and too buggy.
The only life saver was druid and wizzy ports, but that required hassling other people which I never liked to do, partly because I was too cheap to want to donate them 20p or whatever. But on the whole, I loved travel in EQ. No other game feels like a world. Vanguard did for a while, but then they went full WoWtard and added all the rifts.
Qeynos was supposed to be a distant settlement, and really, it was only the Karanas which made it distant. The hobbits were only half a zone away from Highpass, so it was the big Karana plains beyond that which added some scale to the game. And they were also the only really good sized zones in the game at that point. The few other big zones like OOT and Butcherblock Mountains or whatever but they tended to have so many impassable walls and expanses of water that you couldn't really get a good feel for the scale. But once you got out to the Karanas, they were big open plains and that's what they were supposed to be. Loved by Druids and Bards who could whiz about them without fear or bumping in to zone walls or anything, kiters paradise.
Like I said, I thought travel in EQ was perfect if you were a Bard, and never been better in any other game. Once you've run through a zone at 100mph, nothing else compares. The only issue with EQ is that at level 10 or whatever, when you spent your whole life in Kelethin and then they expected you to travel to Qeynos or Odus for a couple of spells, that was a hell of a journey to make as a lone low level bard. I know cuz I did it. The only boats were also a total pain because they were too infrequent, too slow, and too buggy.
The only life saver was druid and wizzy ports, but that required hassling other people which I never liked to do, partly because I was too cheap to want to donate them 20p or whatever. But on the whole, I loved travel in EQ. No other game feels like a world. Vanguard did for a while, but then they went full WoWtard and added all the rifts.
And cash.Yeah exactly, I leveled a war in the karanas on the regular to avoid combat, and to snipe casters w/ my wurmy/shim partisan comboReally hope EQN includes a RZ type server with 1 item loot!
I highly agree that instanced dungeons/raids took alot of what made EQ specialy to me out of the game. However what may be more detrimental to MMO's as a whole is ease of travel/exploration. In everquest, travelling was sometimes dangerous, something you had to put effort into. Flying mounts seem to have a very adverse effect on game play. Players no longer have connections to the landscape, cities, and towns. Being able to get lost in a game, and being able to find your way, or find someone to assist you was a big plus in EQ.
Druids and Wizads could teleport you, but only to certain areas. Getting a druid port to cobalt scar then having to run through sirens grotto, through western wastes, then finally getting to TOV. No flight paths, no flying mounts. The game nutured the nessicity to really know and understand zones, you could not just half'ass content and get your shiny loot. There is no longer emotional conntections to zones or even your character. You are just fed free loot all the time and expect it to come far to often.
There was crap in EQ that you could get at level 20-40 that you wore at level 60, and it was still good.
Theres so much crap in EQ1 that made it such a hit to the players who loved it. I just hope they dont cater to the generic MMO/WOW crowd of today.
this may have been the most random, unorganized post ever... and for that, i apologize.
Druids and Wizads could teleport you, but only to certain areas. Getting a druid port to cobalt scar then having to run through sirens grotto, through western wastes, then finally getting to TOV. No flight paths, no flying mounts. The game nutured the nessicity to really know and understand zones, you could not just half'ass content and get your shiny loot. There is no longer emotional conntections to zones or even your character. You are just fed free loot all the time and expect it to come far to often.
There was crap in EQ that you could get at level 20-40 that you wore at level 60, and it was still good.
Theres so much crap in EQ1 that made it such a hit to the players who loved it. I just hope they dont cater to the generic MMO/WOW crowd of today.
this may have been the most random, unorganized post ever... and for that, i apologize.
Totally. The long journeys made it feel like a real world and not just some instant gratification game. You just don't get that feeling of "being in a world" otherwise. But it did other things too. Like those journeys through high level places (Sirens Grotto was especially cool) when you were low level, it mean that survival was actually a skill. You learned when it was time to invis up and tread carefully, and plan your route to the exit if things go wrong, and it made things like Feign Death, Root+Gate etc. such an important thing for exploring. And it also put things in to perspective. I remember being a newbie and I had spent two whole weeks playing in Greater Faydark. The only other places I had visited, were Crushbone, and Felwithe. Then my friend phoned me and told me about this adventure he went on to this whole other island.. He told me how to get to butcherblock mountains and then travel through that, get the boat to Freeport, etc..
So I made the journey alone, at like level 8 or something, and Butcherblock was scary as hell. Lots of red con mobs wandering around that would kill me in a second. It was great because spending a long time in one place, you gain a few levels, then you start to feel badass. Then suddenly a red con kills you with one punch and gives you a much needed reality check. But it motivated you because the more effort you put in, the more of those red cons you could out level and kill them with one hit instead. It balanced it all the way through the game. You always felt the fruits of your progression because you always had stuff you could destroy in a second, but the game never lost its sense of menace because there was always stuff that could wupp you too.
One last semi related thing... twinking, I miss that. Yeah I know it causes all kinds of harm to the game, but damn it was fun. I have given up on Rift now but the other day I did a dungeon with my mage and ended up winning the greed rolls on a bunch of strength type gear - blue weapons and stuff. I thought OOH! Maybe I could give this to my rogue, then I realized it all had level 50 restrictions on it. Way to take the fun out of everything.
So I made the journey alone, at like level 8 or something, and Butcherblock was scary as hell. Lots of red con mobs wandering around that would kill me in a second. It was great because spending a long time in one place, you gain a few levels, then you start to feel badass. Then suddenly a red con kills you with one punch and gives you a much needed reality check. But it motivated you because the more effort you put in, the more of those red cons you could out level and kill them with one hit instead. It balanced it all the way through the game. You always felt the fruits of your progression because you always had stuff you could destroy in a second, but the game never lost its sense of menace because there was always stuff that could wupp you too.
One last semi related thing... twinking, I miss that. Yeah I know it causes all kinds of harm to the game, but damn it was fun. I have given up on Rift now but the other day I did a dungeon with my mage and ended up winning the greed rolls on a bunch of strength type gear - blue weapons and stuff. I thought OOH! Maybe I could give this to my rogue, then I realized it all had level 50 restrictions on it. Way to take the fun out of everything.
Totally. The long journeys made it feel like a real world and not just some instant gratification game. You just don't get that feeling of "being in a world" otherwise. But it did other things too. Like those journeys through high level places when you were low level, it put things in to perspective. I remember being a newbie and I had spent two whole weeks playing in Greater Faydark. The only other places I had visited, were Crushbone, and Felwithe. Then my friend phoned me and told me about this adventure he went on to this whole other island.. He told me how to get to butcherblock mountains and then travel through that, get the boat to Freeport, etc..
So I made the journey alone, at like level 8 or something, and Butcherblock was scary as hell. Lots of red con mobs wandering around that would kill me in a second. It was great because spending a long time in one place, you gain a few levels, then you start to feel badass. Then suddenly a red con kills you with one punch and gives you a much needed reality check. But it motivated you because the more effort you put in, the more of those red cons you could out level and kill them with one hit instead. It balanced it all the way through the game. You always felt the fruits of your progression because you always had stuff you could destroy in a second, but the game never lost its sense of menace because there was always stuff that could wupp you too.
One last semi related thing... twinking, I miss that. Yeah I know it causes all kinds of harm to the game, but damn it was fun. I have given up on Rift now but the other day I did a dungeon with my mage and ended up winning the greed rolls on a bunch of strength type gear - blue weapons and stuff. I thought OOH! Maybe I could give this to my level 30 rogue, then I realized it all had level 50 restrictions on it. Way to take the fun out of everything.
So I made the journey alone, at like level 8 or something, and Butcherblock was scary as hell. Lots of red con mobs wandering around that would kill me in a second. It was great because spending a long time in one place, you gain a few levels, then you start to feel badass. Then suddenly a red con kills you with one punch and gives you a much needed reality check. But it motivated you because the more effort you put in, the more of those red cons you could out level and kill them with one hit instead. It balanced it all the way through the game. You always felt the fruits of your progression because you always had stuff you could destroy in a second, but the game never lost its sense of menace because there was always stuff that could wupp you too.
One last semi related thing... twinking, I miss that. Yeah I know it causes all kinds of harm to the game, but damn it was fun. I have given up on Rift now but the other day I did a dungeon with my mage and ended up winning the greed rolls on a bunch of strength type gear - blue weapons and stuff. I thought OOH! Maybe I could give this to my level 30 rogue, then I realized it all had level 50 restrictions on it. Way to take the fun out of everything.
I'll say it again, Blizzard designers made some incredibly fucking stupid decisions - some of the worst in the industry. I won't even touch pvp and the arena system, that has to be some of the absolute worst design I've seen in any videogame, let alone an MMO. Flying mounts are another. The EQ design team had more talent, accidentally or otherwise.
They were good at boss mechanic design and vanilla dungeon design. Class design was decent to sometimes above average. But that's it. That's all. What handed them their ferraris were their engineers and animators.
They were good at boss mechanic design and vanilla dungeon design. Class design was decent to sometimes above average. But that's it. That's all. What handed them their ferraris were their engineers and animators.
Leveling in Everquest was probably the most fun I have ever had in any game. It required you to group with other players, work together, and not be a socially remedial cunt. Being able to solo to max level in a MMO only makes the leveling process a chore. There is nothing fun about playing a massively multiplayer game alone, running back and forth to quest gives hundreds of times during the leveling process. Requiring people to work together, as a team, to accomplish leveling can lead to a much more consistant player base at higher levels.