EQ Never

Daidraco

Avatar of War Slayer
10,708
11,372
Imo, if they do go as casual with the gameplay as you and many of us fear then that will be EQ Next's downfall. Casual gameplay in all the latest mmos usually means the game will last a month or two and then everyone moves on. There has to be some sort of challenge that keeps us coming back. Dailies aint it.
Honestly, this game is the first game that presents the possibility of getting rid of Dailies. It'll probably still have them as an extra incentive, but they shouldnt be needed. If the AI is as good as they say it is, it will be exciting to log in each day and see whats changed.

The way I envision it - After my guild and I kill the leaders of this big Shissar Clan, I log for the night. I come back the next day and have found that the strife that has ensued since there is no leader has caused the Shissar to splinter off into smaller roving bands and theyre attacking small villages and Farms. An order from Firona Vie is pasted on a local tree (all Robin Hood like) to kill these roving bands and she'll award those that do!

Remember Asherons Call? It wasnt daily, but when an update hit, you would want to log in as soon as you could so you could see what had changed. I quit that game for a while and logged off in a town. I come back and fall to my death as soon as I log on because the whole fucking town had been blown up or some crazy shit while I was gone.

All in all, Im trying to think of shit that I do in my life that is almost habitual and ask why its almost habit-like. Facebook for many people is something they have to keep up with all fucking day. Why? Cause they want to know whats going on outside of their boring, mundane lives. Same can be said for a game and the Storybricks shit and Voxel tech should be perfect for it.
 

Felmega_sl

shitlord
563
1
Land ownership, animal raising, farm reaping, castle building, ship building, social participation. These are the qualities that can keep people coming back after they are bored of combat/raiding. A sandbox of fun and different stuff. When logging on players should have a choice from a bevy of different options on how to spend their time - not just killing stuff 24/7.
 

gogojira_sl

shitlord
2,202
3
Randomly generated instanced dungeons one must dig to find, inconsequential mundane loot, MOBA shit. idk, bros. Plus what good is building a voxel manor if Dunmar and I can't store player heads in it?

Never played UO and only recently heard this track, but every time I listen to it now I get in a nerd trance.
 

misery_sl

shitlord
495
0
I'm still not sure what to think about no levels. I mean, leveling up is a great way to give players a sense of steady progression. So now instead of killing things for exp and loot you're only killing things for the loot? I guess I'm having a hard time envisioning it because I've never played an mmorpg like it.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,395
289
I'm still not sure what to think about no levels. I mean, leveling up is a great way to give players a sense of steady progression. So now instead of killing things for exp and loot you're only killing things for the loot? I guess I'm having a hard time envisioning it because I've never played an mmorpg like it.
Just load up some F2P titles that dont use levels to get an idea how it could be. EVE doesnt use character levels to give one example that you can try for free, cant think of any other right now tbh.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
Land ownership, animal raising, farm reaping, castle building, ship building, social participation. These are the qualities that can keep people coming back after they are bored of combat/raiding. A sandbox of fun and different stuff. When logging on players should have a choice from a bevy of different options on how to spend their time - not just killing stuff 24/7.
ArcheAge has all that. If ArcheAge proves your assumption is correct about all those things being good for player retention, EQNext has time to put their version of the system into the game.
 

a_skeleton_02

<Banned>
8,130
14,248
I'm still not sure what to think about no levels. I mean, leveling up is a great way to give players a sense of steady progression. So now instead of killing things for exp and loot you're only killing things for the loot? I guess I'm having a hard time envisioning it because I've never played an mmorpg like it.
They say no levels but...there will be levels. instead of getting a lvl 60 warrior you have to rank him up by doing some sort of achievements. So as a paladin you may not grind mobs for XP but you may have to grind "honor"
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Levels trivialize everything at the same pace. It's annoying. More of your progression should be specific to your experiences. Kill gnolls? Amazing gnoll killer. Wield swords? Expert sword wielder. Levels as we understand them should be the abstraction of our acquired proficiencies, rather than proficiencies being available as we gain levels.

You can leave a lot more content on the table if I'm actually bad at killing goblins at level 50, and have the opportunity to go develop my ability to slay them. Gear should follow the same trend. +500 AC steel plate shouldn't trivialize fighting every single thing in the game because it just devours any potential for content you haven't done to still provide an interesting experience. The less relevant content you have, the faster the developers have to churn out new stuff, and we've been witness to substantial evidence that they're not capable of keeping pace.
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
8,498
10,716
There are a million (better) ways to give your character a sense of progression that don't involve levels.
Levels are simply another stat on your character sheet. The problem is that levels have a disproportionate effect in all the formulas that govern your effectiveness (usually in combat). It was less pronounced in EQ1, but in WoW, for instance, each level gave you a +0,5% chance of hit a given mob and a +1% chance of doing a crit.

Which is why level trump everything, and we race to max level: it's simultaneously the easiest stat to increase and the most important one.

Remove levels and suddenly, you remove the race to max.


The challenge is that levels provide also a simple way to compare yourself to another character. Higher level? You're - probably - more powerful.


In my armchair devs days, I had a level-less level system. Level would be another stat, just like any. You increase your level by increasing that stat with equipment, buffs, achievements, whatever. It works better with soulbound equipment (if level-equipment is tradeable, it gives an entirely different perspective on "twinking"), and you have to sacrifice the crafting mini-games of a classic MMO. Bonus effect if different pieces of equipment increase different "class levels", which prevent warrior tanks from switching their plate gauntlet +5 lvl for a cloth glove +7 lvl just to get a higher level. You can still have spells and abilities requiring a specific level; if you lose your level, your ability downranks or is outright disabled. That gives you a different form of progression, while still allowing people to gauge relatively accurately your power. In fact, the final incarnation didn't have "+X lvl" on equipment, it's just that STR/CON/plate stats would increase your warrior level, INT/FOCUS would increase your wizard level, and you were simply displayed as a "Level 57 warrior" because that's what your higher level was. And the appropriate buff would make you a level 61 warrior instead of 57.

And if you wondered, that's basically what people did with Gearscore in the olden days before ilvl was shown.
 

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
Breaking away from levels is pretty important when trying to shatter the stale AD&D paradigm that MMOs are pretty much stuck in.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,879
12,268
I don't care about character levels so much as I hate the item ilevel treadmill. There needs to be character customizations and effects on items that matter besides +gooderest stats.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
My idea with items is that the world is full of unique items. Players earn experience (but not for levels). They use experience as currency to put into items. You can then level those items up into different forms. That item leveling up can be as simple or as complicated as you want.
 

Vitality

HUSTLE
5,808
30
My idea with items is that the world is full of unique items. Players earn experience (but not for levels). They use experience as currency to put into items. You can then level those items up into different forms. That item leveling up can be as simple or as complicated as you want.
Like pokemon but with weapons! I'd play that.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,254
916
I bet we get an announcement in regards to an alpha or beta timeline for EQNext. I think they may even give out some keys. I'm still feeling we'll see EQNext next Christmas with a big beta giveaway on the anniversary.

I also think H1Z1 and Landmark open beta & release dates will be announced.

Anyone at or going to SoE Live this year?
 

Hootie

Silver Knight of the Realm
227
75
You may not like any of it but Planetside 2 is a huge success for them as well as Landmark. Games like EQ and EQ2 are still profitable till this day so i'm not sure what you mean by "amounted to anything"

I guess if you think a game needs to have 10 million active subs to be "something" then you're right.
I'm always amazed by how timeless EQ is in regards to money. There would not be expansion packs made all these years if they were not making a good profit. The question i always ask is it addiction or is it a good game?
 

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
Good stuff on AI and leveling. Old, but a good reminder.

"So there tends to be lather, rinse, repeat sorts of ways to defeat those monsters," Georgeson continues. "In addition, all the quests that are like that are very linear in nature. There's a quest, you go out into the world, you kill 10 rats or whatever it is, you get your loot, and you move on to the next quest. There's not very much attention paid to the world around you, and the world isn't very dynamic, and doesn't change to whatever tactics you want to adopt."

It's this emergent AI system that Sony Online Entertainment has been talking up for EverQuest Next -- the ability for the enemies to not just attack you in waves, but actually read how you play, and react in such a way that they have a better chance of survival.

Says Georgeson, "Let's say you're in combat, and you use a fireball followed by a cold spell, and it happens to kill the monsters really well. You think 'Well, that seems like a really good idea, I'm going to do that a lot!' Then you go in and start using it against different types of monsters, and you realize that they start reacting to you in different ways, depending upon how smart the monster is."

Enemies have different levels of brain power, and the smarter they are, the less likely the same tactics can simply be used over and over again.

"They start using different dynamic situational modifiers," Georgeson adds. "It's not like an aggro bar, where you're basically just trying to keep a monster's attention by going 'nee-ner nee-ner' at him. They are assessing the threat constantly. So as you move around on the battlefield, your physical location in relation to all the other monsters is being assessed by all the monsters. The tactics you were, which defensive abilities you have up - all these things affect the monster's decision making."

The hope is that this will mean every combat situation is different, no matter where you are and who you are battling against. Of course, when you bring another of EverQuest Next's big selling points into the situation -- the voxel-based world destruction -- things can that little bit more interesting.

"When you start using destructability on top of that, to be able to use the environment around you in a tactical kind of situation so that you're blowing a tree down to block a doorway to keep monsters from coming in, or building a pit under some monsters so they fall in temporarily," says Georgeson. "All of these things are different ways to interact with the game."

Another way in which EverQuest Next is attempting to break the mold is by nixing the leveling system.

"In a regular MMO, you pick a class, and then if you want a different kind of game experience, you have to ditch that character, and form a new one that's a different class," Georgeson reasons. "What we're doing instead is, as you move through the world and you learn more things, what you do is you pick up other classes. You can not only play any of those classes at any time, but you can actually mix and match their character abilities, to be able to create classes that you've never seen before."

The idea is to provide players with a feeling of moving forward through vertical progression, upgrading gears and items within each class. By removing a leveling system, SOE hopes that players will be able to join their friends at any point, no matter how many hours a person has already put into the game.

"Our intent is that you'll be able to play the game for two years, and if one of your friends joins in, you will be able to group together and play together," he explains. "You'll clearly still be the vet - it just won't be as dramatic as it is with a traditional leveling system, where's there's no way you can group with each other. What we do is give you lots of ways to progress, and essentially customize each one of these classes to be the way you want them to be."

"So there's a lot of verticality depending upon what way you want to play," Georgeson adds. "But there's definitely not the same game as a traditional leveling RPG, and you have to kind of look at it in a slightly different way."
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
That's nothing but armchair dev wank from actual devs. Let me know when they have actual systems in place and can show them.