EQ Never

Indeed, the levels of detail of some of these entries are very very impressive.

Tearofsoul_sl said:

Indeed, the levels of detail of some of these entries are very very impressive.

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They pretty much shit on any of the bland ass looking Dark Elf builds. The Kerran contest winner video basically alluded to looping back around and doing another pass at old contest winners because of that.

well georgeson cut his ponytail off so that's gotta be some kind of groundhogs day effect for this title. Probably late 2016 depending on the weather and how tight smeds grip is on butler's wrist.

They can't manage content marketing updates each month so maybe the tail-cut is just diversionary.

Iannis_sl said:

While that's probably true, creslin, it also makes EQN sound one hell of a lot less interesting.

I'm starting to wonder, I mean legit wonder, if there are any programmers left in this industry that -could- write a stable engine anymore. Actual engineers. Maybe those guys have moved on to more reliable work? Between the pressure from above for quick production and the complete lack of pressure from below for optimization... anyone who ever actually gave a shit has moved on to writing stock trackers/online service applications for retailers?

I dunno. It just seems like there's been a real brain-drain for the nuts and bolts part of the industry. It is entirely possible however that No, it is thechildrenexecutives who are wrong.

I just read stuff like this about EQ:Voxels and I read stuff about the assassins creed retardation and it seems like... maybe there's just no one around that really knows how to make itgoanymore.

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There are tons. What about the people that write the actual engines that get licensed out? The people at Natural Selection also wrote their engine from the ground up. Just because there isn't a huge need for the skillset doesn't mean the skillset doesn't exist in the industry. Generally programmers aren't that concerned with learning a skillset, especially one as complex as writing an engine from scratch, that isn't really needed for their jobs.

I do mean specific to this industry.

You look at wildstar. I'd say that there may well be a needful position for guys who can develop and maintain their own engines. You look at any western mmo except for WoW and CoX. Especially if you're dealing with AAA budgets to begin with. Cutting that corner is not just cheap, it's stupid and cheap. I just mean that considering the garbage they're pushing out, and how it's largely failing, maybe it is a needed skillset on their team. There are obviously people that can do it, but they ain't making mmo's anymore. That's all the observation is. The level of technical competence in this part of the industry seems to be bad and getting worse.

It just seems to be bad business. And that's not Grumpy Old Man Iannis. It's just a decade of high profile garbage. Maybe they should hire fewer Brad McQuaids, hire more Matthew Millers.

I think most of it's attributable to two things: Sturgeon's Law, and the fact that any talented engineer can find a more stable job that earns them vastly better money for their time outside the industry.

Vitality_sl said:

how tight smeds grip is on butler's wrist.

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Misreadwaistand lolled.

I have high hopes for EQN after landmark but only because of their content creation tools; If EQN is entirely crowdsourced and made by the community in Landmark I think that will be turning point of something awesome.

EQEmulator kind of is what Landmark wants to be for content developers right now. Tools to make a world as opposed to recreating a world, though you can recreate that world in those tools given enough time.

If Landmark gets a quest creation and/or scripting engine built into it, I guarantee the games made on that engine will be awesome. You'll see a downpour of creativity coming out, moreso than just voxel buildings... you'll see endless amounts of quests, scripted AI boss fights, zone populations, skills, spells, and more. The problem with most MMOs is you run out of content at endgame and the players have no way of making more and are reliant on developers. If the players are able to make their own free 'mini-games' in Landmark that have zone connections, NPCs to kill, loot to be earned, etc, you can almost guarantee that the players will actually be making EQNext in their own way in due time. And maybe that's what SOE is banking on - the players making EQNext - instead of spending development time on making it a reality.

Well, its a huge experiment isn't it? The theory is that the faceless masses are more creative, harder working and more talented than any team of skilled specialists.

Looking at those Kerran builds, its probably true. Give enough people the tools, the direction and the platform and they will do some incredible things. The challenge of EQ will not being in having enough assets or creativity, it will be in the selecting the right ones from a huge number of choices.

This has to be the way going forward. I dont see how it can be any different. I bet WoW would last another 10 years if they gave players the ability to craft raids and build new worlds. I bet they are planning on doing just that.

Dahlrek_sl said:

I think most of it's attributable to two things: Sturgeon's Law, and the fact that any talented engineer can find a more stable job that earns them vastly better money for their time outside the industry.

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Yeah once the wide eyed "OMG I'm making games!" wears off being a game developer is pretty shitty. Longer hours with no pay increase over working a normal corporate job.

Iannis_sl said:

I do mean specific to this industry.

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Making an MMO engine is not a trivial thing, especially given every player wants every single feature that has been introduced to MMOs since the very beginning. Most triple-A, single-player games have a very focused experience and still run into difficulties. It's stupid NOT to use pre-existing engines, especially for a massive online game linking millions of people together in a stable, persistent world.

I'm curious how many of you actually code, who are making comments about "Just make your own MMO engine".

It's nice to see the community building decent things, but I'm ready to see some homegrown shit. I don't doubt new ideas and cool tricks will emerge from players, but ultimately a team full of developers doing this shit for a living are going to crush what the community comes up with. Show me some of that. Also, I'm sick of looking at the stupid ass human faces with metro hair. I want to see them Ikkys.

The engine is such an overlooked aspect, combat feeling clunky and unresponsive because the engine is shit is a massive recurring issue in these games. Wow was perfect because the blizz engineers are amazing. Darkfall was perfect because I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes, and then df2 had a new engine and was also great so ya I dunno maybe it really is easy to make your own engine.

Ps2 engine is ok, I think its about rift quality, not perfect but it's not swtor or eq2 bad either.

Ukerric_sl said:

I didn't miss that point. My point was that, before, you had a vast and immense pool of computer graduates that would acquire skills that would translate easily into MMO-tech. Meant you could get good ones for reasonable prices. Today, the pool of people who do acquire good skills in the areas required for a MMO is far, far smaller than it used to be, even though there are more developers than any time before.

The people working on high-end system software for Amazon, Google, Facebook are a relative minority of the devs out there. Meaning you can't hire them, yes. That's the point. 15 years ago, you could hire anyone outside of the game industry and they would have skills useful for your MMO. Today? Nope. 90% of the devs won't know anything useful for you.

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And thats why I havent looked for a job in video games. My skillset just doesn't translate.