Everquest Legends

xmod2

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People pretending XP pots aren't P2W is such a painfully boomerific, dad-gamer cope that it's honestly exhausting watching this argument get resurrected every single time a new game launches a cash shop.
People defending xp pots and 'qol' as not p2w are this annoying cross section of people who have a deontological belief that 'p2w is always bad' paired with an overwhelming need to fellate the devs and position them as never being able to do wrong. This leads to the kind of retarded apologia that somehow xp pots are in the same category as gay rabbit pets. The alternative is so distasteful to them, that their great white hope of a game may have p2w mechanics, that they will continue to spout the dumbest shit imaginable.
 

Kaines

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People defending xp pots and 'qol' as not p2w are this annoying cross section of people who have a deontological belief that 'p2w is always bad' paired with an overwhelming need to fellate the devs and position them as never being able to do wrong. This leads to the kind of retarded apologia that somehow xp pots are in the same category as gay rabbit pets. The alternative is so distasteful to them, that their great white hope of a game may have p2w mechanics, that they will continue to spout the dumbest shit imaginable.
Even if we agree that XP Pots are P2W (which I agree with), in a fully instanced MMO, who the hell are you competing against?
 
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Kuro

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If I were setting up a server I'd reduce everyone's move speed by a hidden 1-5% permanently randomly each reset, and sell micro transactions that add a hidden random 0-3% bonus movement speed permanently per consumption
 
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Burren

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If I were setting up a server I'd reduce everyone's move speed by a hidden 1-5% permanently randomly each reset, and sell micro transactions that add a hidden random 0-3% bonus movement speed permanently per consumption
Pure evil, lol
 
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moonarchia

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Even if we agree that XP Pots are P2W (which I agree with), in a fully instanced MMO, who the hell are you competing against?
Yourself. And only yourself, which removes the win aspect of p2w. I guess it being just a convenience is a win if you really want to just be done faster. Or have friends you want to play with, but can't invest the same amount of time due to RL.
 
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xmod2

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Even if we agree that XP Pots are P2W (which I agree with), in a fully instanced MMO, who the hell are you competing against?
Post GoD everything is instanced in EQ. In WoW everything is instanced. Are you saying there is no 'win' condition in those games other than personal satisfaction of clearing the content with your wife's boyfriend's guild?

You could argue it's a 'solo' game or single player, but plenty of people complain about p2w in single player games. Guaranteed there will be people posting about clearing x difficulty raid 'first' in the discord, etc. We are both in agreement that a) xp pots are pay to win and b) that pay to win doesn't really matter in old garbage games that have their soul ripped out already (like everquest), but competition is more than just you personally killing a dragon.
 

Mrniceguy

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Even if we agree that XP Pots are P2W (which I agree with), in a fully instanced MMO, who the hell are you competing against?

P2W almost always has negative impacts on game design. Even if you "Don't care about winning"

Even if you "don't care about winning" there are still gonna be times when you wish this or that grind wasn't so long and the only reason it was designed to be that long was to increase XP pot sales

Even if you "don't care about winning" you're going to see/here about your friends doing stuff you can't do because they did p2w and sometimes have FOMO about it.

Even if you "don't care about winning" there is going to be a cool looking mount that's a store mount instead of a raid boss drop because of P2W.
 

Burren

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P2W almost always has negative impacts on game design. Even if you "Don't care about winning"

Even if you "don't care about winning" there are still gonna be times when you wish this or that grind wasn't so long and the only reason it was designed to be that long was to increase XP pot sales

Even if you "don't care about winning" you're going to see/here about your friends doing stuff you can't do because they did p2w and sometimes have FOMO about it.

Even if you "don't care about winning" there is going to be a cool looking mount that's a store mount instead of a raid boss drop because of P2W.
All fair points, but does that mean we should all have the same opinion or level of interest in EQL? AKA, negative opinions?
I’m interested and optimistic. I don’t care if people do or do not use the store. Won’t change the decisions I make. If it changes other’s decisions then that’s on them.
If the cash shop creates a lasting community and plenty of content, great.
 
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Kaines

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Post GoD everything is instanced in EQ. In WoW everything is instanced. Are you saying there is no 'win' condition in those games other than personal satisfaction of clearing the content with your wife's boyfriend's guild?

You could argue it's a 'solo' game or single player, but plenty of people complain about p2w in single player games. Guaranteed there will be people posting about clearing x difficulty raid 'first' in the discord, etc. We are both in agreement that a) xp pots are pay to win and b) that pay to win doesn't really matter in old garbage games that have their soul ripped out already (like everquest), but competition is more than just you personally killing a dragon.
Correct. There IS no "win" condition in those games beyond beating the content. If you and a group of other people create YOUR OWN win conditions, then be adults about it and set the parameters around what is allowed when engaging in those "competitions." Use P2W, don't use P2W, whatever. The game itself does not need YOU being a third party developer defining "winning."

P2W almost always has negative impacts on game design. Even if you "Don't care about winning"

Even if you "don't care about winning" there are still gonna be times when you wish this or that grind wasn't so long and the only reason it was designed to be that long was to increase XP pot sales
This is a valid concern. But cannot be a provable criticism until we actually see what the grinds are like and what the P2W items in the shop look like.

Even if you "don't care about winning" you're going to see/here about your friends doing stuff you can't do because they did p2w and sometimes have FOMO about it.
There is absolutely NOTHING in the game that you cannot do without XP Pots that you can accomplish without XP Pots given more play time. Friends "doing stuff you can't do" is only a thing when you are on the level / AA treadmill. And even THEN only if they are SO far ahead of you that a few percentage points of XP for an hour or so they got from an XP pot is COMPLETELY insignificant. If you are THAT far behind, you weren't catching up if XP Pots weren't a thing.

Even if you "don't care about winning" there is going to be a cool looking mount that's a store mount instead of a raid boss drop because of P2W.
And? If you are that much of a completionist then open your fucking wallet. Otherwise, learn to deal with your OCD in more appropriate ways.
 
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xmod2

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There is absolutely NOTHING in the game that you cannot do without XP Pots that you can accomplish without XP Pots given more play time.
You cannot be in the server first kill of any raid boss in an expansion that has a level increase.

Saying 'all content can be seen without an xp pot' is naive. I can also just come back 6 years later and 'see' all the content. What matters in a multiplayer game is what happens with and around other people. With the way communities are in the modern era, even single player games have this 'meta' gaming. You can say you don't value it, or it isn't important, but then you're as much and armchair 'game designer' as you accuse your critics of being.
 

Kaines

Potato Supreme
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You cannot be in the server first kill of any raid boss in an expansion that has a level increase.

Saying 'all content can be seen without an xp pot' is naive. I can also just come back 6 years later and 'see' all the content. What matters in a multiplayer game is what happens with and around other people. With the way communities are in the modern era, even single player games have this 'meta' gaming. You can say you don't value it, or it isn't important, but then you're as much and armchair 'game designer' as you accuse your critics of being.
You cannot be in the server first kill of any raid boss in an expansion that has a level increase if you don't play every single day either. Why don't we put in playtime controls? That's a MUCH bigger advantage than a few percentage points of xp over an hour of playtime.

Fucking moron.
 

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
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arm8k7.jpg

lauch it with a 9.89 sub price for maximum nostalgia
 
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xmod2

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You cannot be in the server first kill of any raid boss in an expansion that has a level increase if you don't play every single day either. Why don't we put in playtime controls? That's a MUCH bigger advantage than a few percentage points of xp over an hour of playtime.

Fucking moron.
What a bad argument, you should be embarrassed.
 
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rolien

Golden Squire
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No. Pay to skip tedium != p2w. Honestly, if you find the in game way too tedious, that might be an indicator you might not want to play it. Tedium is 125% pure EQ, and why we all remember the epic quests. So far, I haven't heard anything that would make me not have fun, but the proof is going to be in the pudding.

FFXIV lets people pay to skip the MSQ. WOW lets people buy max level for a character. What exactly are you winning if you pay to skip? A little bit of time you won't have to spend in the game, which for me seems stupid, because I am playing a game specifically to spend the time in it and enjoy the experience of it.
How can you call "unlocking" a literal class when they removed the ability to make alts not P2W?
 

Kirun

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When progression is entirely self only, like THJ or what it looks like they might be doing on EQL, where everyone can instance all the things, then it is not p2w at all. If this was mnm where they plan to shove everyone in an uninstanced hellscape where everyone has to out dps everyone for loot and camps, you would be right. In properly instanced games there are no monopolies on anything, so the only thing that happens for someone using an xp pot is they level/aa faster.

If racing provided some sort of game power/ability that was otherwise unobtainable you would be right. But I haven't seen anything so far that indicates that will be the case. If Faceless is able to clear naggy/vox/fear/hate/sky 5 minutes after the server opens, who the fuck cares? Good for them. They will have full +10 on 20 accounts before I get my first one done. That has jack and shit to do with my game experience unless I want to baz something for convenience that they might be selling. I will get to those same fights solo in my own time, and I will probably have a lot of fun doing it. Each emu I have played has had various quirks, but I have enjoyed them.
That's a much more reasonable argument than the usual "XP pots aren't P2W because convenience magically doesn't count" nonsense, but I still think you're underselling how progression advantage functions even in heavily instanced environments. You're basically arguing that because the degree of competitive impact is reduced, the monetization no longer qualifies as P2W at all. I don't think that tracks.

Instancing absolutely mitigates a lot of the worst MMO behaviors, agreed. But reduced impact is not the same thing as "no impact." Even in a fully instanced game, progression speed still affects: access to stronger gear sooner, AA accumulation sooner, farming efficiency sooner, economic generation sooner, market influence sooner, raid readiness sooner, group desirability sooner, etc. Those are still forms of measurable character advantage obtained via real money.

The thing I think people keep doing is conflating: "Does this negatively affect MY personal enjoyment?" with "Is this P2W?". Those are not the same question. You personally not caring if Faceless clears everything instantly doesn't somehow erase the monetized advantage that got them there faster. It just means you've decided it doesn't meaningfully damage your own gameplay experience.

But there are absolutely shades to this stuff. A mostly instanced server with XP pots is obviously nowhere near as toxic as an uninstanced krono-ridden sweatfest where guilds weaponize every progression advantage to dominate content access. Still, paying real money for accelerated progression in an RPG where progression directly translates into character effectiveness is, definitionally, paying for advantage. Even if the environment softens the downstream impact.

So I think the more intellectually honest position is: "Yes, XP pots are technically P2W, but in a heavily instanced environment the practical impact on other players is reduced." That's a much stronger argument than pretending the mechanic somehow stops being P2W entirely because the server ruleset is "friendlier".
 
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