Final Fantasy VII Remake

Rezz_sl said:

You want me to refute your objectively wrong opinions by posting my personal opinions about 13?

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Well it was more aimed at Itzena who I think is just trolling as he slunk away without posting his own arguments, but my aim is to just have people read the opposing viewpoints and make up their own mind. Like they think "oh wow yeah it was great that FF8 had antagonists and music, FF13 didn't have those other than fighting Barthandelus 4 times in a row in the last third" and "shiva sisters and Snow's love story with a crystal was fucking retarded what the hell?".

Noodlemod_sl said:

Believe it or not people defend 13. People that smoke crack.

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XIII? Nah, it deserved pretty much all of the criticism. The only thing about the game I'd call memorable was watching some pretty fantastic pre-rendered cutscenes in 1080p. XIII-2 and LR absolutely should be defended though. XIII-2 improved on XIII in pretty much every way possible, and I'd say Lightning Returns has what is easily one of the best JRPG combat systems of all time.

I'm pretty sure it's no coincidence that the second and third games were so drastically improved after tri-Ace was brought on to assist with development.

Rezz_sl said:

The method of character progression in 13 is heads and tails better than any FF outside of 3/5/10/12, but that's not saying much because either there's no maleable progression in other games or they are retarded like 8's. .

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Just curious what you consider to be character progression?

Especially considering you put 12 in there as an example of "better" character progression?

I view character progression in terms of growth of the characters personal story throughout the game. 7 for instance had NPCs with side stories and character arcs deeper than most playable characters in 12. Vivi from 9, a mute doll, had more character progression than most of the cast of 12 combined.

I found 12 to be one of the games that deviated the most from previous titles in terms of character growth. Featuring Baltheir as the only one who really had much progression (he was great). Vaan and Panelo could be outright removed from the story and it'd hardly make a difference. Characters felt rather static in terms of their growth, which was further added on by (the non zodiac version) every character ending up with the same build and controlled with gambits.

13 somewhat continued on with that. Characters were quickly defined and on they went, remaining fairly static throughout the entirety of the game. Lightning in 13 and 13-3, even though it is from soldier to gods right hand, acts and talks nearly the same. Hope too.

I'll post this video again, also posted it in the FF thread, but TB mentions that he doesn't understand that Lightning gets put in so many games, when he can't define a single good aspect of her character, and the other guy says "She lacks character, I mean, that's her character, that she doesn't have any character".



That said, bought 13-3 on the PC now, never finished it. HATE time mechanics in games, especially RPGs. PC trainers to the rescue. Press 4 to stop time. Yes, I know that once you progress you can do it by a fairly constant chronostasis, but I do not like to be forced to minmax time in rpgs, I do not read "guides". Let me explore and run about from the start. Much better experience now.

Vorph_sl said:

XIII? Nah, it deserved pretty much all of the criticism. The only thing about the game I'd call memorable was watching some pretty fantastic pre-rendered cutscenes in 1080p. XIII-2 and LR absolutely should be defended though. XIII-2 improved on XIII in pretty much every way possible, and I'd say Lightning Returns has what is easily one of the best JRPG combat systems of all time.

I'm pretty sure it's no coincidence that the second and third games were so drastically improved after tri-Ace was brought on to assist with development.

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I whole-heartedly disagree.

The only real difference to combat was you played Pokemon. There was no real variety here besides different monsters, but if you went with chocobos there was no reason to branch out. Even then.. it was still "auto attack". Same battle system, it is trash.

The story was pants on head retarded as well. The graphics were ok, but on PS3 the game would often dip into like 15FPS territory. I didn't really care for Serah and Noel was just weird. Game made no sense and it sucked.

LR, I admittedly did not beat this. The combat was better in the fact that at least you were actively doing stuff. Graphics were ok, but the quest/levelling system turned me off. On top of that having a timer is a retarded design.

Fuck these games were trash.

DoctorSpooge_sl said:

Graphics are objectively better, but beyond that I think you might not quite know what objective means.

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Hence the word "opinion" appearing 8 times in the post. The use of the word "objectively" was because I think Chris' opinions are simply wrong that they shouldn't be lumped together; they are by far the most derided FF games in the series, and that's not an opinion. 2 (not IV on super nintendo) would be on the list as well because it has one of the worst progression systems, but it was probably considered awesome when it released in the 80s in Japan. And I really doubt the millions of NA people that played the timely released versions elsewhere in the franchise really cared/remembered the translated Nes version or the GBA port of 2, but they would probably hate it with a passion if they did.

Noodle: if you are autoattacking the entire game, you killed things really slow with a com/sent/med paradigm for every fight. Most bosses required you to change strats mid-fight and switch paradigms, or use various abilities/techniques at opportune times. Compared to turn-based gameplay where you select fire 3, and then when the turn for that character comes up again you select fire 3, it was substantially more engaging. How many people did anything but hit O or A for the vast majority of trash fights in every game? I don't remember doing anything other than melee rape trains in every FF that wasn't 12 or 13/13-2, because you didn't need to. Except vs. bosses, which is exactly what you did in FF13.

Edit for Droigan: The same thing most people say when they refer to character progression in a video game: not the storyline (usually referred to as the story, which is how a jrpg character "progresses" or "grows" in most games) but the mechanics behind character power and ability/skill/magic/whatever accrual. The system of character progression. Not character story progression. I qualify the individual character progression, especially in jrpgs, as part of the story. Because 99 times out of 100, it is immutable and wouldn't change from playthrough to playthrough. The story dictates how the characters react; not the player. And I would definitely say that 12 and 13 have crap for that type of story related progression. But the mechanics in both of those games have a lot more maleability (until the end, like every FF minus 1/9/4) where everyone can do everything) and you can actually choose to do different things during the leveling process. IZJS for 12 specifically removes the Jack of All Trades schitck that 2/3/5/6/7/8/10 and the 12 NA release had. But anyway, I'm talking game mechanics, not story stuff.

Droigan_sl said:

Just curious what you consider to be character progression?

Especially considering you put 12 in there as an example of "better" character progression?

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I think he meant that literally, as in the way the game mechanics, level and stat system, etc. work, and not how the characters developed in the plot. I'd assume that he's talking about XII IZJS too.

I like Lightning too, especially the way Ali Hillis voices her (anyone who plays these games with the JP track without actually being able to understand Japanese is doing it horribly wrong). Being kind of an asshole to all the stereotypical JPRG shithead characters who want the protagonist to do some inane task should be seen as a good thing imo.

Rezz_sl said:

Noodle: if you are autoattacking the entire game, you killed things really slow with a com/sent/med paradigm for every fight.

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Exactly this. Autoattacking is fine for trivial fights, just like how mashing one button with menu memory turned on is fine for practically every other JRPG. Try that with, say, Yomi though, and you're looking at the difference between a 15+ minute fight and a 3 minute one. Or in some of the harder coliseum battles just straight up getting your ass kicked back to the title screen.

Vorph_sl said:

I think he meant that literally, as in the way the game mechanics, level and stat system, etc. work, and not how the characters developed in the plot. I'd assume that he's talking about XII IZJS too.

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Well in terms of level + stat system, I'd agree with putting 12 (zodiac) ahead of most (all?) games in the series.

I wish RPGs would stop simplifying things though. There is a medium between old RPGs that almost required complex math skills and the newer systems where all choices are made for you.

I hope 7 has
- Materia (updated more complex system)
- Grid type character growth system that allows dynamic growth, but also defined character skills that makes characters individuals and not just generic group members.
- Many slots for armor/weapons to equip + visual representation of armor/weapon changes.

Hopefully them putting the game out in episodes mean that they will expand on all the different side stories of the game, which there were lots of.

Also looking forward to the "complete remastered edition" released in 2020.

I switched paradigms but I only did autoattack the entire time.

Sulrn_sl said:

I would still recommend playing 8 over 13.

As much hate as the draw system got, the game was still far more entertaining to me than 13 which I have failed to make it further than two hours into on several occasions. "Objectively" better combat doesn't mean much when the rest of the game isn't engaging in anyway until you get further in.

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The leveling and scaling of shit is retarded as hell in 8 as well

So much hate for 8. So much hate. It was one of my favorite FF games. Fuck the haters!

Ritley_sl said:

The leveling and scaling of shit is retarded as hell in 8 as well

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To each their own. The scaling had 0 effect on my first run as I appreciated the system where I never had to grind to find the sweet spot of difficulty for trash encounters(without Diablo's junctions) and all I had to do was farm triad cards for magic/ weapon components. I also thought it offered a unique opportunity with the never-level run. It also catered to letting people min-max boss fights, so one more plus if you ask me.

Different franchises, but ES/FO also scale and you mostly only hear about people wanting more difficulty in those games. I thought the crowd would appreciate that in a JRPG instead of over-leveling enemies.

Related.

Mist_sl said:

It's been how many years and Squaresoft hasn't made a game better than Chrono Trigger? Seriously.

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That isn't really fair since such an accomplishment isn't possible.

9 i didnt finish, 12 i gave away - 13 never happened as far as im concerned. I am pretty sure 15 will be the only non MMO FF to come out since 10!

Foggy_sl said:

That isn't really fair since such an accomplishment isn't possible.

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Cross was just as good.

Quaid_sl said:

Cross was just as good.

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While I dont agree with you there, it had probably the best OST of any Square game thats for sure. Something always felt off about the combat system, and there were too many characters to care about them other the Kid and Serge. I did like the story however.

Could never get into chrono cross with its 65 playable characters.