Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

AladainAF

Best Rabbit
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In the end, all it does is encourage your average player in the DPS role to drastically underperform so they don't have to deal with it.
Correct. That's what makes the difference between the "average" player, and the "good" players.

The average players just don't care, and just don't deal with it, underperform and the entire raid suffers as a result. The good players will know where they stand, perform over expectations, and the raid benefits as a result. I think having this kind of separation is a good thing.
 

Swagdaddy

There is a war going on over control of your mind
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Correct. That's what makes the difference between the "average" player, and the "good" players.

The average players just don't care, and just don't deal with it, underperform and the entire raid suffers as a result. The good players will know where they stand, perform over expectations, and the raid benefits as a result. I think having this kind of separation is a good thing.
I agree
 

ZProtoss

Golden Squire
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Correct. That's what makes the difference between the "average" player, and the "good" players.

The average players just don't care, and just don't deal with it, underperform and the entire raid suffers as a result. The good players will know where they stand, perform over expectations, and the raid benefits as a result. I think having this kind of separation is a good thing.
You can have that sort of separation without badly implemented aggro mechanics. There's a vast array of tools you can design that allow for a much higher skill ceiling than what the standard takes on tank/dps allow. Aggro is one of the tools that really shouldn't be used as a primary mechanic.
 

Grizzlebeard_sl

shitlord
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Equally there are bad players at the other end of the spectrum who just go balls out and get themselves killed. They make tanks, healers, and decent DPS jobs life a misery. From an FFXI perspective roughly 90% of Rangers and Black Mages but in that game part of the problem was the threat management for spike damage jobs was close to non existent.
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
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I played a black mage for many years and usually was the top DPS or at least close. I never got killed unless I wanted to. Some people are just bad.
 

Dandain

Trakanon Raider
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I played a ranger and felt the same noodle, if your group skill chained, and you merely saved your huge burst for when you knew it would be a finishing move - but not wasted or you could survive for a few hits with the many tools you could have subjobed. The FFXI threat is actually fun imo, compared to a raw number (like wow), it had a much more what have you done to me lately so that large spikes could pull, but coordinated with what threat tools the tanks had it was simple enough to enjoy, but complex enough to make choices for strong efficiency of group and such.
 

Valdraxx_sl

shitlord
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Signed up for Beta, looking forward to seeing this game. Did not play the original from everything I heard about it. But will give the Reborn a try. :-D
 

Orange_sl

shitlord
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Just realized I never cancelled my sub to this game when I tried it out about a month before it shut down. Wonder if that'll work out into my favor since I AM interested in trying the remake.
 

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
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As a tank in.. every MMO released since 1999, there's a weird combo of stigma and awe that is attached with players who take up the mantle. Lose aggro on a mob? You get blamed. Some asshole doesn't know how Mez (or similar mechanics) works? Tank generally gets the blame. Healer dies for -any- reason, tank gets the blame. There is a very valid reason why the amount of tanks on a server is usually smaller than DPS or healers or any other type of class. DPS will bitch if they get swung on while using high spiking attacks. "Tank sucks, I got hit during xxx encounter." Healer will instantly bitch if the tank isn't in the absolute best gear available so they don't have to stare at lifebars for the entire dungeon/camp/whatever. (Part of the problem is the way healers are generally handled in games)

Good tanks who enjoy tanking are rare. There are definitely good tanks who hate tanking, and definitely bad tanks who enjoy tanking. With healers it is similar, but as they are considered more "required" in most games, they get a huge amount of leeway that other classes generally don't.

But while I can bitch about the plight of tanks on and on, what it really comes to is that basically every group needs one. Just like they need a healer. And while a shitty healer can make an entire group work from dusk til dawn to get things done, a shitty tank can effectively sink a group. But while a stellar healer may make a mediocre or bad tank/dps survive encounters to progress at a terrible pace... a stellar tank can trivialize content to a really high level in most games. Really though, it all comes down to "Fuck DPS" and anyone who willfully plays that role and nothing else and expects people to give two shits about them in any modern game is a tardball. <3 DPS
 

Valos

Golden Knight of the Realm
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Just realized I never cancelled my sub to this game when I tried it out about a month before it shut down. Wonder if that'll work out into my favor since I AM interested in trying the remake.
Everyone with a former account gets into the beta.
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
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As a tank in.. every MMO released since 1999, there's a weird combo of stigma and awe that is attached with players who take up the mantle. Lose aggro on a mob? You get blamed. Some asshole doesn't know how Mez (or similar mechanics) works? Tank generally gets the blame. Healer dies for -any- reason, tank gets the blame. There is a very valid reason why the amount of tanks on a server is usually smaller than DPS or healers or any other type of class. DPS will bitch if they get swung on while using high spiking attacks. "Tank sucks, I got hit during xxx encounter." Healer will instantly bitch if the tank isn't in the absolute best gear available so they don't have to stare at lifebars for the entire dungeon/camp/whatever. (Part of the problem is the way healers are generally handled in games)

Good tanks who enjoy tanking are rare. There are definitely good tanks who hate tanking, and definitely bad tanks who enjoy tanking. With healers it is similar, but as they are considered more "required" in most games, they get a huge amount of leeway that other classes generally don't.

But while I can bitch about the plight of tanks on and on, what it really comes to is that basically every group needs one. Just like they need a healer. And while a shitty healer can make an entire group work from dusk til dawn to get things done, a shitty tank can effectively sink a group. But while a stellar healer may make a mediocre or bad tank/dps survive encounters to progress at a terrible pace... a stellar tank can trivialize content to a really high level in most games. Really though, it all comes down to "Fuck DPS" and anyone who willfully plays that role and nothing else and expects people to give two shits about them in any modern game is a tardball. <3 DPS
Good post. In FFXI I always wanted to play a tank, but since I was tarutaru the most I got was when I played NIN up to about 50, although I did play WAR to 75 and looked badass the whole way. It wasn't until WoW that I lived my fantasy of being a tank, and now it's the only role I play in MMO's. It takes a real masochist to play a role that takes the blame for everything, but I enjoy it. Throw me into the good tank that enjoys tanking category. It was really evident who the good tanks were during vanilla especially when things like threat meters were seldom used. I enjoy threat, damage reduction, and being "responsible" for the overall well being and progress of the group.
 

Murked

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Speaking of FFXI and aggro, having played a Thief for much of my career, I was (and still am actually) blown away at the mechanics of Trick Attack. I thought it was awesome that you actually had to position yourself to "trick" the monster that your attack was coming from whoever you trick'd off.
 

Penance

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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IMO the trinity is still the same, what has changed are some very specific class abilities. I mean FFS, EQ1 was core trinity/diku design, just with some added (and possibly in the long term, unintended) mechanics.



There are plenty of classes across a number of MMOs that have scads of abilities like this. Many are, arguably, of short duration, but they are there. WOW Rogues might be a good example, it might be arguable, and I'm sure that others can come up with many other classes as well.



You just described good Hunters in WOW (emphasis on "good"). They may have changed since I last played WOW, but when I did play regularly I knew a couple hunters who could have me pull, tag one and ice trap it, then tag another and kite it if necessary. Obviously the clock was always ticking and we needed DPS to burn the rest before traps wore off, but that's just one example off the top of my head.



Sure it was, but it was capable of breaking content. And a good FD puller could split off single mobs that were never meant to be splittable. But Devs aren't going to want one class to be able to trivialize content while others cannot, and that was a huge failing on the part of EQ1. Hence the changes to FD mechanics (I'm looking at you EQ2), hardcoded encounter mobs and mob leashing. And honestly, FD pulling and things like mass trains and AE kiting an entire zone are often the bulk of what a lot of the EQ1 vets actually complain about but it isn't likely that we'll ever see any of that again in those forms. No Dev is going to want to allow people to pull entire zones or dungeons, they aren't going to want training, nor will they want certain classes to be able to single pull every zone in the game.

FD pulling at least I think was nerfed too much, since you could probably link mobs together and make them unsplittable without having to change FD mechanics themselves, but whatever.



Tons of MMOs now have abilities that the non-Tank classes have to use. Talk to anyone who has had to boot a DPS class from their group because they wouldn't use deagros or anything similar, or who didn't know that their class had a hate transfer. And honestly, as someone who has mostly played tanks in MMOs, the last thing I would want as a tank is other people in my group having to bear part of the burden of managing mob agro or being somewhat responsible for who a mob attacks. Because frankly that leads to having mouthbreathers dick things up because it is no longer solely controllable by the tank, but the tanks usually get blamed anyways. Let the support assholes support and let tanks do the fucking tanking. And don't even get me started on things like hate transfers and support class deagros, because any variation between classes can lead to people min/maxing class makeups and that leaves the other classes begging for groups because they aren't quite as good due to class design.

Few things infuriate me more than having pulls go to shit because Devs decided to give non-tank classes MORE agro/deagro abilities, which means that agro/tanking will be balanced around everyone doing their job so that when little timmy buttonsmasher is trying to go MAX BURN DPS on every pull I have to burn taunts because they can't be bothered to do their part on agro management.

Give support more of a role with agro? Sorry, but FUCK NO. I say give tanks better tools to manage agro with if you're going to go with an agro based system, because by and large most DPS players are fucking idiots.

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While all your points are valid, I was kind of going for something more grand. When I talk about new roles, I don't mean something that performs DPS with tricks up their sleeve. Now obviously, nobody wants to just kite and and mez during the whole encounter. Just like most people don't like to Heal or Tank compared to DPS (most). People like to see numbers, whether they be represented in the form of damage, DPS meter, or after battle results (ala SSS rankings).

Imagine a boss fight like this. First, you aren't constrained to one room. I don't mean "phases" like Deathwing. Imagine fighting throughout the dungeon, or across the plains. Imagine Gandalf vs the Balrog. When you have a much more dynamic fight, you can start inventing much more dynamic roles. Maybe support also controls the environment. Move boulders, blow through walls, levitate across bridges. Pullers might control the horde coming in to fight you, throughout the whole fight. I'm being very simple minded by sticking to these same roles over and over. I'm sure more talented and imaginative people might think of better ways to perform the role and even come up with better roles.

Now we still have the need for tangible evidence other than the end result. Bragging rights per se. Evidence has shown, that games that have the strongest following always have stats to compare. It's just in our human nature as gamers to want evidence to show our friends. This is where having roles differ from DPS/eHP/HPS jobs might be tricky. After battle reports for each person for the encounter would help, but again I digress. Much more talented people will be able to think of more.

WoW is great, and does its job well. It is the MMO 2nd Generation in its perfect form. However, I think we're all ready for 3rd generation perfections.
 

krismunich

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Giving his amazing game record, what the hell happened to him as producer for FF XIV? I remember that interview where he explained to the journalists how jumping in MMOs is total unnecessary.
 

Flipmode

EQOA Refugee
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Giving his amazing game record, what the hell happened to him as producer for FF XIV? I remember that interview where he explained to the journalists how jumping in MMOs is total unnecessary.
He got too full of himself and had to commit seppuku.