Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)

wait so a guy who was literally foaming at the mouth for a invite and payed $ for one, likes the game? Colored me shocked.

After the last FF I will wait for a little more info, or try it my self.

I will give you though that eastern games usually have amazing environments, NPC models, armor design/textures and animations. It's the game play and/or progression design that is usually lacking really bad. The last FF was awesome looking but jesus christ the gameplay/design not to mention UI killed it.

cinge_sl said:

wait so a guy who was literally foaming at the mouth for a invite and payed $ for one, likes the game? Colored me shocked.

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I am not a fan of Final Fantasy's. They are probably my least favorite prolific RPG series. I was not foaming at the mouth to play this game, I was foaming at the mouth to play a decent game - of which there has been a dearth of.

Did not say I liked the game but rather that the first couple of hours that I played were enjoyable and left a good impression. If the PvP isn't good then I won't be buying it.

cinge_sl said:

I will give you though that eastern games usually have amazing environments, NPC models, armor design/textures and animations. It's the game play and/or progression design that is usually lacking really bad. The last FF was awesome looking but jesus christ the gameplay/design not to mention UI killed it.

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But it's not just a one-time occurance. It's quickly becoming a universal law like like the Law of Thermodynamics.

Lineage 2, Aion, Final Fantasy, Tera, etc. Even fucking Dragon's Nest had better graphics than these western AAA titles.

Rift and Vanguard, while being the two best looking western MMO's, had inadequate animations that were completely out of form, shoddy, and just didn't fit. Why is there such a discrepancy between quality in this department? I am really curious? Is it because these studios devote more of the budget towards art?

And you should also wonder why the sudden western preoccupation with cartoon-like graphics such as SWTOR and Neverwinter? We're told because they run on older machines thus catering to a larger target audience. No, well maybe, but only partly. That's certainly not the only reason.

I think primary reason for this discrepancy in graphical representation between MMOs from two different cultures is due to fundamental flaws in our (American/Western) culture and society. We've become lazy, incompetent, entitled fucks who all think we're going to be millionaires with the god given right to sip pina coladas in the Bahamas 325 days a year.

I'd wager your average Japanese / Korean developer produces much more in their respective field at only a fraction of the price, all without requesting constant leaves, vacations, and benefits.

...that's the only way to explain the fact that American studios are given hundreds of millions of dollars and produce this dogshit:


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiVcjczd4S0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1KDVGs6_Gg

Compared to this which came out almost ten years ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVrXmSX3qd8

or...


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...unless of course you believe that Asians are naturally better at artwork than Europeans. Which would make you a racist. I think it's just because our workforce is lazy, incompetent, and overpaid. And considering the sheer amount of outsourcing from American companies? I'd say executives agree with me as well. Time to outsource MMOs?

Anyone forming too solid of an opinion over this beta 1 version is not getting the entire picture. IMO, beta phase 3 is where we'll see the entire picture. The Arcanist class wont even be available to play until open beta phase. I think this game still has some work to do but its definately not terrible and thats more than 90% of the games released in the last 1-2 years can claim.

I think SE has a good base with how the game is right now. That being said, I think they're a long way away from capturing a legit player base. My fear is that they've borrowed too much from other games and they won't have a charm to throw in the mix with the game. If it's going to be the standard quest for EXP, raid/instance for loot, PvP, mundane crafting design then I don't see the game doing well outside of the 'fan boys'. After having done the first 'instance', the combat and group play was just meh; it felt like XI a little too much (outside of it being instanced). I'm still interested in the game and hope they're on schedule/pace to have a good open beta phase. I think phase 3 will be the best indicator of where the game is going and how well it's received.

Valos_sl said:

So whats the process, owner checks mail and clears it and its gtg until owner tries?

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I remember only having to verify once during Alpha, after that there was no notifications.

Flipmode_sl said:

Anyone forming too solid of an opinion over this beta 1 version is not getting the entire picture. IMO, beta phase 3 is where we'll see the entire picture. The Arcanist class wont even be available to play until open beta phase. I think this game still has some work to do but its definately not terrible and thats more than 90% of the games released in the last 1-2 years can claim.

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Basically why I haven't commented on anything except the graphics. Game does feel "limited" atm, which is to expect, when you're only given a handful of available classes.

Some really negative stuff on the forums from players who got to 20+. Dungeons are linear, boring, and repetitive. Also, partying is harshly punished. Party size in dungeons is only four!

I am level 35 and I have to agree unfortunately. Was running around with some LS mates and all we could talk about was how boring the game was. I couldn't even bring myself to do Haukke for my last level because I was so tired of it and I went around doing random fates instead and finishing up my quests.

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lacking social based gameplay, and overall difficulty, feels like im playing a baddly implemented single player rpg.

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With tons of people parroting that sentiment. This is only phase 1 so we'll see where they go from here. My biggest worry is how people are describing this as a single player game, and that grouping experience is isn't up to par. I.E. a quick and easy solo kill of an equal lvl monster yields 2,000 experience but a full party killing an elite only yields 300 (which takes much longer).


Game is in early, early beta and most of the complaints could possibly be fixed quickly just by tweaking numbers. So we'll see.

Keep in mind they have only showed 1 of 3 continents. There are more dungeons than were in this beta.

As for the xp, those people grouped up to kill a higher level mob (solo not elite), and got shitty xp. The only elite mobs are in dungeons afaik.

I don't think 4 people is a bad size for leveling dungeons. If it's anything like v1, the level cap dungeons will require 8 people, and I know they've mentioned 24-man raid groups before as well.

I'm with you on art by the way. When I went back to FFXI last year, I was reminded of how good that game looks even today. Sure, the models are low poly and less detailed than current games, but the animations are still top-notch.

ixian_sl said:

I'm with you on art by the way. When I went back to FFXI last year, I was reminded of how good that game looks even today. Sure, the models are low poly and less detailed than current games, but the animations are still top-notch.

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Yep. But why?

Western MMOs seem to be about ten years behind their eastern counterparts graphically. As absurd as that sounds, it's not hyperbole.


Maybe there's a popular third party studio that specializes in art and animations that contracts its work out?

GW2 had great graphics. Rift had good graphics. AOC had good graphics. EVE has good graphics.

Picking WoW and WAR and going lawlbadgraphics is kinda dumb. Complaining that you don't like the art direction or design decisions made to go with performance over gfx doesn't mean that all western artists suck. It just means you like anime style graphics. Its alot like going into the cooking thread and saying all western chefs suck because you prefer asian food.

The worst offender I can think of for legitmately bad graphics and animations is SOE. Those morons put out AAA titles that featured melted GI Joes and performed terribly. WoW doesn't look great but thats because its made to run on a toaster, EQ, VG and EQ2 tho, made to rape your system and look terrible while doing it.

Woolygimp_sl said:

...unless of course you believe that Asians are naturally better at artwork than Europeans. Which would make you a racist. I think it's just because our workforce is lazy, incompetent, and overpaid. And considering the sheer amount of outsourcing from American companies? I'd say executives agree with me as well. Time to outsource MMOs?

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There's plenty of cases of U.S. companies having fantastic art/animation - it's just those companies aren't game companies and pay their employees significantly more. Game development due to the crazy schedules + lower pay doesn't usually attract top tier talent in the U.S. Top tier art/animation talent ends up working for companies like Pixar - not random game dev studio X. Just like top tier programming talent ends up working at giants like Google/Microsoft. The competition for top level talent in the U.S. is fierce, and game development companies are generally unable to hire premium level talent.


There are exceptions of course. Most notably, Valve. The animation and texture work in Valve's recent games isgreat. DOTA 2 is a thing of beauty, and definitely reflects the level of talent that Valve was able to acquire.

Another thought is that I always felt that western artists, maybe due to western art history, were stuck having to chose between cartoon style and realist style. From my point of view it seems difficult to find a middle-ground between those two, so artists have to make a choice, often picking realist style for games, which is quite hit or miss due to the uncanny valley.
On the other hand, I believe that eastern developers have a wider range of choices between anime style and realist style because it seems easier to find a middle ground. So they are likely less stuck having to make a choice and thus can adapt their style more easily to avoid going full realism and hit the uncanny valley.

Thus, it would not much be a matter of who is better between eastern and western artists. It's just that western artists have less margin error, esp. when facing schedule constrains because they often have to go for realist style which is very time consuming and requires a very high skill level. If they do shit, everyone will complain that's garbage because they'll just focus on the uncanny valley. On the other hand eastern artists can fall back on the manga style. In this case some people will still say that it is garbage if they do shit, but a non negligible part will just point that it's not that bad because anime style is still met.

At the same time, I have a hard time convincing myself with such points because western art also includes comics style, and this one could be used to find a middle ground with realist style. On top of it, I still have shivers about EQ2 (and a bunch of other western games) character graphics and animations, while I've never felt such hatred regarding eastern games, even after playing my share of them. Maybe I'm just biased because I like manga/anime, so less likely to shit on eastern style.

From digging items out gazelle shit to washing shitty prison underwear...

We have evolved!

Hopefully they ignore all the whining about leveling methods and concentrate on end game. The current available paths are good enough, considering a lot people are comming into this max level.

Fogia_sl said:

At the same time, I have a hard time convincing myself with such points because western art also includes comics style, and this one could be used to find a middle ground with realist style. On top of it, I still have shivers about EQ2 (and a bunch of other western games) character graphics and animations, while I've never felt such hatred regarding eastern games, even after playing my share of them. Maybe I'm just biased because I like manga/anime, so less likely to shit on eastern style.

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I see your point, but I don't know, the uncanny valley has always been a thin debate personally and doubly so when it comes to staring at something on a screen. That being said, I defiantly lean more towards the realistic styles.

Woolygimp_sl said:

Some really negative stuff on the forums from players who got to 20+. Dungeons are linear, boring, and repetitive. Also, partying is harshly punished. Party size in dungeons is only four!





With tons of people parroting that sentiment. This is only phase 1 so we'll see where they go from here. My biggest worry is how people are describing this as a single player game, and that grouping experience is isn't up to par. I.E. a quick and easy solo kill of an equal lvl monster yields 2,000 experience but a full party killing an elite only yields 300 (which takes much longer).


Game is in early, early beta and most of the complaints could possibly be fixed quickly just by tweaking numbers. So we'll see.

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I'm hoping the next couple beta phases show more flavor in them. I feel like they have a great starting point but they're a long way off at the same time. The animations and style look great but the flow seems clunky at times. One thing that I'm having to get used to again is spell casting interruption. It's one thing to be slowed or completely stunned but to have a random, 'normal' hit stop me from casting when all I can do is cast is garbage. Having to start over with a 2.5 second cast time will cause for a lot of deaths and so far at level 20, I have zero instant abilities as a caster. In a game where questing is a big exp focus, I feel like you need some sort of instant abilities and casts that allow you to survive when you're a squishy caster.

You guys are getting very close to breaking NDAs. Stop please.

Mazim_sl said:

Hopefully they ignore all the whining about leveling methods and concentrate on end game. The current available paths are good enough, considering a lot people are comming into this max level.

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are you fucking kidding? This mentality is what kills new MMO's from expanding their audience.