Fires of Heaven - The good, the bad, and the whatever else.

Fight

Fight

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,737
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Phazael_sl said:
~Phaz aka Jice Virago of Veeshan
Feels, man. So much nostalgia.
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Mangina, Dark Elf Cleric?

Anyways, Celestial Tomb felt like we were the victims most of the time. You had a celebrity personality like Furor at the top of the server, shouting down like a god from heaven, that CT was scum of the earth. You think the rest of the server ever did CT any favors? You think anyone felt bad when one of their trains to zone wiped a CT group, or care to offer them a rez? CT was the beaten and abused dog under the table hoping for a scrap to fall on the floor. You had a few assholes at the top of each guild that felt like they had some personal pride on the line that would do and say some cunty things, but most everyone else was just a soldier following the guy in-front of him up to the front lines to get shot at.

The thing CT took he most shit for, was also it's fatal flaw. Zerging.

FOH would be done with a zone for their mains and alts in like a month, on to the next challenge. CT would be gearing up their masses for so fucking long that people would get bored and quit because their main was fully geared and they couldn't imagine logging on for the next 3 months to gear up little Timmy recruit #202 only to see them join their cousin's guild after a month. It was like a country who's infrastructure was spread too thin and was constantly collapsing under it's own weight. It is easy to fail with big numbers, when you don't hardly know the people you are grouped with. There is no trust, no shared experience to call upon when shit would hit the fan. Plus a severe lack of Clerics will shut your shit down fast. You could take 30 people, as long as you had 5 clerics, a good Main Tank, and beat any early EQ encounter. But you try to take 60 people to an encounter where you have 3 clerics. GG, "LOL, how do you wipe with 10 groups!?!"
 
Phazael

Phazael

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Well, you guys steamrolled over smaller guilds all the fucking time. The three day power farm of Plane of Growth Repops was not exactly good PR, either. Then there were the res piles and bind rushing where everyone else on the server would just do a /who all celestial and watch the levels count down. You guys might have been shit on more than you deserved, but like hell if you didn't earn most of it, mostly from your GL at the time. Xanopox I think? Furor posted sceenshots of him hiding in the fire pots in TOV watching FOH clear it. That guy and his asshole attitude likely caused you guys more grief than any single other factor, though the zerg thing certainly did not help. Holy fuck you guys had tons of people. I developed aneurisms managing 4 groups, so I have no clue how you guys managed to do anything coordinated with the ten you had, especially in the pre UI customization vanilla era. If you were one of the sorry fucks who had to tow the line for Xanopox's ass clownery, then I do feel bad for you. I mean, I did some shitty things in defense of my guys, but I never steamrolled, killstealed, or ninjalooted anyone. I came down hard on any of the guild who did, as well.

I think that sort of reputation of guild thing was lost in WoW and a large part of why even though it seemed tailor made for casuals like our guys, we never really got into it. Give me 12-20 man runs on things like Vindi, Trakanon, Velk, or the like any day of the week. That shit was bond forming and people behaved a lot better when reputation actually mattered. It is what made all the bugs and grind bearable. But like any drug, that first trip to Nafagen is not something you can ever experience again. Fuck me for even thinking about it fondly after all the head pounding that went into things like a Tunare clear or Cazic 2.0 clear. But, feels man.

And no I was Jice Virago, Dark Elf Shadow Knight. My guild was The Corps, which was a casual guild started by the Wisconsin people who used to be in Outriders of Karana, after the dev people in that guild moved on to FoH and Legion.
 
alavaz

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,009
717
Needless_sl said:
FoH drama seems boring, Fiends on the other hand was entertaining to watch and see
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Fiends actually had a few of the best MMO players I've ever met. They also picked up a lot of garbage who had been blacklisted everywhere else. If anything though, I'd say that it's actually a testament to their leadership core because they've actually taken some folks who were shit on by the entire server community (in multiple games) and turned them into top tier raiders.
 
Archeron

Archdruid Archeron

the Site Surgeon
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Phazael_sl said:
And no I was Jice Virago, Dark Elf Shadow Knight. My guild was The Corps, which was a casual guild started by the Wisconsin people who used to be in Outriders of Karana, after the dev people in that guild moved on to FoH and Legion.
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Wow this is dredging up old memories. Jice, I am sure that we met a long time ago. Archeiron was a wood elven druid. I feel like Voronwe, wood elven ranger, introduced us but I could be wrong. I ended up Legion with Voronwe, which became Sovereign after we merged with Ixtlan. Sweet, sweet nostalgia.
 
S

sebur

Bronze Squire
1,174
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Sleestak was awesome btw, don't remember if I said that, spoke with him almost daily in game. I think I remember fucking over a CT or 2 and maybe even a raid on my wizard alt. I think the best part of the reputation as someone else mentioned. FoH aside you became known if you were good. Like oh shit there is that badass cleric who heals us through crazy shit in groups get her to heal! There is that awesome monk who knows how to pull and chain pull like a boss to keep the exp flowing! That just isn't the same any more except maybe the people inside your guild feel that way about certain people.
 
Phazael

Phazael

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Archeiron_sl said:
Wow this is dredging up old memories. Jice, I am sure that we met a long time ago. Archeiron was a wood elven druid. I feel like Voronwe, wood elven ranger, introduced us but I could be wrong. I ended up Legion with Voronwe, which became Sovereign after we merged with Ixtlan. Sweet, sweet nostalgia.
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Yeah Vornwe was one of my favorite people on the server. The dude was Veehsan Royalty. Kind of wish their board had not pooched my login on the veeshanvault, but it is probably for the best that I don't get sucked in there anymore.
 
Eidal

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
Kreugen_sl said:
Man it's like jumping into a time machine.

Remember when other guilds got a fair chance at doing the content and WIPED HORRIBLY? I don't understand - they got there first, they had all the time they wanted to prepare. Just go tank and spank bro.

Do you have any idea how many times FoH killed a raid mob that was standing on top of mountains of corpses? Or how many people who openly hated our guts thanked us when we recovered their bodies?

We're talking about guilds that took months of failure to bring down Vindicator, who was only up because we didn't give a shit. He was right there for anyone to kill - what's your excuse now?

If Everquest is so easy, then why do so many people suck at it? - Kreugen from the 1999 wayback machine

I've asked myself the same question for going on 15 years now. It's true for any game out there, but it becomes exponential with the more players working together that you need to succeed. Look at uber k/d CODbros failing horribly at Destiny because coop is so foreign to them. Every time I play WoW I am slack-jawed in stupefied amazement at how badly people still suck at a 10 year old game with content that has been static for 14 goddamn months. I'm like you, BP - I can't fathom how there is ANY excuse for that. Hell, Everquest had progression servers where with all the modern knowledge and hacking tools and multiboxing assists and nerfed content you have experienced players who STILL wipe to shit.

Yes, with the knowledge we have now, EQ is laughably easy. But we had to LEARN those things first. And we (FoH, Afterlife, et al) learned much faster than anyone else.

There are mother fuckers out there who can beat every fighter in punch-out except Tyson WITH A BLINDFOLD ON. Do you think he accomplished that the first time he picked up the game? If he can do it, you should be able to duplicate it within a few minutes, right?

PS: The answer to the EQ question is mostlylogistic skills. For example, our final prep for a raid mob was to form a line that buffers would run down to ensure everyone was freshly buffed and ready, plus tricks like "shit buffing" so that dispels didn't wipe out the good buffs first. How many guilds do you think figured that out in the first year or three or Everquest?

But it doesn't explain everything - like how a max level player manages to suck even in a small-group environment. How does that fit into your "just turn on autoattack" mantra?
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I should have been more clear. I think cutting-edge progression in EQ was difficult. But: how many people in FOH were actively building strategy and handling logistics? How many didn't really do that shit but they showed up on schedule and played their class well. I think the vast majority of EQ raiders were "uber" primarily because they had a vast and wide-open amount of play time and secondarily because they could curb their antisocial tendencies long enough to get some shit done as a group. Player "skill", however you want to define it, was 3rd in respect to the first two.

Compare this to a game like League of Legends. If you took the top 1 percent of LoL right now and tutored them in how to beat some "tough EQ Velious raids", how long would it take you before they had it down decently well? Now -- take that same "tough EQ velious raider" and how long would it take to tutor him how to play LoL at the upper echelon?

In case you aren't familiar with LoL, I would wager that every single Challenger/D1 LoL player would find EQ raiding easy as fuck and probably boring... while the huge majority of EQ raiders would not be able to play LoL at a upper echelon level even after a year of practice.

That is what I mean by "skill".
 
Phazael

Phazael

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I cannot speak for the inner workings of FoH, but I know how it worked in my guild. The GL (myself) would handle strategy and pacing the raid. The better officers would help make adjustments. The officers would each handle a group or task. The minions would execute the tasks given for them. I regularly XPed with my guys and worked on them with execution and following the plan. We would also regularly go back and "slop" run older stuff just to make people learn how to deal with random problems (example: I once pulled nearly half the first floor of hate on our raid intentionally just to make us fight through it). If someone was not towing the line, we worked with them and the officers would focus their attention on those people during runs. Other guilds I tagged along with did something similar, though with differing levels of dedication and attention to detail. We also rigorously geared our weaker guys as best we could.

So, whoever said it was about logistics is 90% right. Practice and good leadership made some pretty average people into productive team players. So, really, a strong leader and four good people who are trustworthy is about what you needed for EQ until PoP hit. Vex Thal encouraged zerging, but PoP outright demanded it, which is what made me get out.

What you are describing as skill in LoL is completely different in terms of gameplay requirements. I am sure the average LoL poopsocker could function great in an MMO raid guild (especially WoW), but I seriously doubt they could handle being in the leadership structure of a pre-PoP era raiding guild with the gnat like attention span most of that community has. Being able to polish some turds into useful raid members was an art form.
 
Nola

Nola

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Xanupox aka ninjapox, that's a name I haven't seen in a long time. Few people from CT really stood out to me, namely Toor. Also not from CT but Battyrider and Angellic the Queen of Mistmoor.
 
R

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
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Eidal_sl said:
I should have been more clear. I think cutting-edge progression in EQ was difficult. But: how many people in FOH were actively building strategy and handling logistics? How many didn't really do that shit but they showed up on schedule and played their class well. I think the vast majority of EQ raiders were "uber" primarily because they had a vast and wide-open amount of play time and secondarily because they could curb their antisocial tendencies long enough to get some shit done as a group. Player "skill", however you want to define it, was 3rd in respect to the first two.

Compare this to a game like League of Legends. If you took the top 1 percent of LoL right now and tutored them in how to beat some "tough EQ Velious raids", how long would it take you before they had it down decently well? Now -- take that same "tough EQ velious raider" and how long would it take to tutor him how to play LoL at the upper echelon?

In case you aren't familiar with LoL, I would wager that every single Challenger/D1 LoL player would find EQ raiding easy as fuck and probably boring... while the huge majority of EQ raiders would not be able to play LoL at a upper echelon level even after a year of practice.

That is what I mean by "skill".
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If League of Legends had been released in 1999, the same gamers who were cutting edge hardcore raiders in EQ1 would have likely dominated in that game as well. In 15 years from now, whatever game the hardcore teenagers and 20 somethings are playing will likely make LoL look simple as well.
 
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Rais

Trakanon Raider
1,308
681
LOL Xanupox. Dude was a joke. Saying he was getting RL airforce buddies to go beat up furor irl. Oh, here is a screenshot of him sitting in the pot watching what we do.

Also I think Veeshanvault is pretty much dead Jice. Winnow and a few others post there, but that's it. Xouqoa still runs it I think, so if you really want to recover it just send him a pm.

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Zastlyn

Zastlyn

Peasant
233
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JTheRuler_sl said:
Fiends actually had a few of the best MMO players I've ever met. They also picked up a lot of garbage who had been blacklisted everywhere else. If anything though, I'd say that it's actually a testament to their leadership core because they've actually taken some folks who were shit on by the entire server community (in multiple games) and turned them into top tier raiders.
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Fiends was a great guild while I was in it. The 12 hour raids that turned into "Well everyone is online, lets do VT for another 12 hours" raids were something I could never do again though
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Asmadai

Asmadai

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3,312
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Eidal_sl said:
I should have been more clear. I think cutting-edge progression in EQ was difficult. But: how many people in FOH were actively building strategy and handling logistics? How many didn't really do that shit but they showed up on schedule and played their class well. I think the vast majority of EQ raiders were "uber" primarily because they had a vast and wide-open amount of play time and secondarily because they could curb their antisocial tendencies long enough to get some shit done as a group. Player "skill", however you want to define it, was 3rd in respect to the first two.

Compare this to a game like League of Legends. If you took the top 1 percent of LoL right now and tutored them in how to beat some "tough EQ Velious raids", how long would it take you before they had it down decently well? Now -- take that same "tough EQ velious raider" and how long would it take to tutor him how to play LoL at the upper echelon?

In case you aren't familiar with LoL, I would wager that every single Challenger/D1 LoL player would find EQ raiding easy as fuck and probably boring... while the huge majority of EQ raiders would not be able to play LoL at a upper echelon level even after a year of practice.

That is what I mean by "skill".
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As much as I want to rip this entire post apart, you comparing current LoL stuff to Velious Raiding to determine your definition of skill has given me a headache.

Plus, we all know World of Warcraft is the hardest mmo out there, amirite guys?
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S

sebur

Bronze Squire
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Is that Raistlin the High Elf wizard? At least I think he was. Shit I suck at remembering this stuff. Either that or an enchanter.
 
Needless

Needless

Toe Sucker
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JTheRuler_sl said:
Fiends actually had a few of the best MMO players I've ever met. They also picked up a lot of garbage who had been blacklisted everywhere else. If anything though, I'd say that it's actually a testament to their leadership core because they've actually taken some folks who were shit on by the entire server community (in multiple games) and turned them into top tier raiders.
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Oh i'm not saying they weren't good, i'm just saying a lot of the drama involving them was hilarious
 
Phazael

Phazael

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Yeah Raistlin was a funny mother fucker back in the day and part of the original team manaburn on Veeshan.
 
Whidon

Whidon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,880
2,906
Wow such memories. I was on veeshan also, In Pravus and cestus for a bit, along with absurdly bad Obsidian guard for a month before those. Had a DE necromancer, Corris. I left for stormhammer sometime after Sleestakk did. There was a good bit of drama between him and FoH IIRC he ninja looted the necro epic item from fear when they killed terror once. Then left for Kruks guild on legends.

I'll say this for CT. The first raid I ever lead was a failed fear raid. I asked every guild on the server to help cept CT and Foh. CT came immediately at 4am in the morning and got our corpses. The hate they get always bemuses me. everyone on Veeshan did shady shit.

The feuds and rivalry on veeshan were great. The Pravus vs ixtlan one sticks in my mind for some reason.

As for FoH wow, others seem to remember it mostly the same way. I really enjoyed raiding and crap during TBC, we had 15-20 amazing players and maybe 30 active guys total who would raid only 3-4 hours a night. Yet we still advanced very quickly and often got world top 10-30 IIRC. Talloo were you Iuona (sp)? he was the best healer i have ever met, I thought i was an amazing resto shammy until I joined and raided with him. Oh, and Melia was fucking cancer.
 
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