Fury: Brad Pitt commands a sherman tank in WW2

Erronius

Erronius

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Palum_sl said:
The German high commanddefinitelydid not understand the war of attrition early enough to make a difference but their design bureaus never really 'got it' either. Granted, most of the design concepts were solicited by Hitler's wacky idea sessions, I will give you that. But they kept making the wrong decisions. It would be an easier leap of faith to say they were too stressed if they hadn't kept misapplying resources to build heavy tanks despite making huge advancements with the Panther. They knew exactly what the M4s and T-34s were doing to them (hence the design of the Panther), yet they kept trying to fix it with more armor instead of improving the better performing and more easily manufactured tank. First by rushing the Tiger into service, the Tiger 2, the Maus, trying to up-armor the Panther into a shitty Tiger II and finally with the E-series designs that, once again, placed the wrong emphasis by basing the common components on the needs of the heavy tank production. That they 'reluctantly' kept producing the Panther because they basically had no resources to turn it into a heavy tank is pretty telling that they were just plain playing a different game. Which is odd, because they largely created the game in the first place...
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I disagreed with you saying that they regressed with the E-series because the Germans never adopted a MBT design strategy. The Tiger filled the Heavy tank role and was originally only envisioned to be transported directly to where it would fight, break through enemy defenses and allow the medium tanks to then exploit the breakout. The Tiger's flaws only really began to show when Germany was forced into a fighting retreat and they were unable to dictate where the Tiger could be deployed - they essentially lost the initiative and the Tiger was ill suited to redeploy quickly on it's own while defending in order to counterattack. The Panther was simply the next iteration of a German medium tank design, which went way overweight as did most designs once Hitler started sticking his nose into things. And it never even fully replaced the Panzer IV, which IMHO was probably one of the war's unsung heroes considering what that model was originally designed for. As for the E series, that wasn't a regression away from a MBT concept since the Germans never grasped that possibility, the E series was simply an attempt to simplify the already existing light/medium/heavy tank design paradigm and reduce the number of individual parts that they had to manufacture (as they weren't in a position to enjoy making every part on every AFV unique unto itself).

Most of their late war armored vehicle design ran parallel to each other. The Tiger was improved upon with the Tiger 2, Panzer III/IV with the Panther (and later intended to see the improved Panther designs), and you also saw that with a move from the Jagdpanzer IV towards the Jagdpanthers/Jagdtigers. It's undeniable that the Panther was one of the precursors of MBT design, but I don't think anyone really put all of the pieces together until after the war ended. Both the Russians and the Germans spent no small effort in trying to outdo each other in regards to tonnage, armor and firepower but the Russians were the ones that could afford to simply throw massively overweight/overgunned AFVs into the mix in large numbers w/o hurting their overall production. Sure, the Germans could have made more numerous lighter vehicles along the lines of the Panther, but the Panther wasn't invincible and the Germans had a hard time in the late war period even being able to field enough crews to man the tanks they had anyways (nevermind being able to supply enough ammo and fuel for that many tanks).
 
Dyvim

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Fuck this thread has me fireing up Panzer General again...
See u suckers in Washington D.C.
 
Quineloe

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rrr_img_70553.jpg
 
Regime

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fuck

looks like there is a Upham 2.0 in this movie that will make my blood boil all over again.
 
khorum

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I grabbed Panzer Corps on the ipad after bringing it up earlier... it's actually incredibly rich with a massive metagame development above and beyond the original PG (it's got the bridgelayer variant of the panzer2 wtf) and tons of performance-based scenario trees. It's basically everything you could ask for for a modernized panzer general and the touch interface is pretty much perfect.

But the whole package including all campaigns (allies, pacific) costs sixty bucks total... base game is 20 bucks which is the most expensive I've seen on the ipad (xcom was 15 iirc). I bought the $40 package and I've already burnt through 30+ hours on it just redoing Norway over and over again to get my veteran stukas as buffed as possible for sealion.

Made the mistake of playing it on my exercise bike, next thing I know it's two hours later and I couldnt feel my legs.
 
A

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Crowing_sl said:
Isn't this the movie where Shia Ladouche attempted to pull a Daniel Day Lewis and method act, effectively pissing off his costars to the point they kicked him off set? I remember hearing he went as far as to never shower and pulled out his own tooth in order to get a "feel" for what it was like in the proverbial trenches and instead came across as an asshole
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yes
 
Chukzombi

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i think the article got confused by saying he was method acting. i think they meant Meth Head acting
 
Quineloe

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khorum_sl said:
I grabbed Panzer Corps on the ipad after bringing it up earlier... it's actually incredibly rich with a massive metagame development above and beyond the original PG (it's got the bridgelayer variant of the panzer2 wtf) and tons of performance-based scenario trees. It's basically everything you could ask for for a modernized panzer general and the touch interface is pretty much perfect.

But the whole package including all campaigns (allies, pacific) costs sixty bucks total... base game is 20 bucks which is the most expensive I've seen on the ipad (xcom was 15 iirc). I bought the $40 package and I've already burnt through 30+ hours on it just redoing Norway over and over again to get my veteran stukas as buffed as possible for sealion.

Made the mistake of playing it on my exercise bike, next thing I know it's two hours later and I couldnt feel my legs.
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I guess if you don't have one of these app-machines, you can't play it at all?
 
Brando

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The one I miss the most is TOAW, some of the scenarios on that were just fucking awesome. Think I played the Fulda Gap and Russians attack Patton's 3rd Army in the Czech more than I can count.
 
Palum

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Erronius_sl said:
I disagreed with you saying that they regressed with the E-series because the Germans never adopted a MBT design strategy.
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I didn't say they regressed, just that they were overtaken. Their designs in the mid 30's (Tiger for instance) were lightyears ahead of everyone else. By 1945 they were retooling the same tanks for the realities of WWII... which was waaaay too late.

Erronius_sl said:
It's undeniable that the Panther was one of the precursors of MBT design, but I don't think anyone really put all of the pieces together until after the war ended.
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Consider that Centurion 1 hit the theateronly a monthafter the war ended.
 
Neki

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Maester Chuk_sl said:
yeah it really doesnt help you worth a shit if your uber badass tank can only defend a small bit of land while everyone else just drives around it and/or later just bombs the shit out of it from above. our shermans were not very thick or very reliable and the guns on them were not very powerful, but there was a motherfucking shitload of them always crawling your way, never stopping.
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Zerg tactics ftw
 
Erronius

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Palum_sl said:
I didn't say they regressed, just that they were overtaken. Their designs in the mid 30's (Tiger for instance) were lightyears ahead of everyone else. By 1945 they were retooling the same tanks for the realities of WWII... which was waaaay too late.
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For some reason I thought you said regressed. My bad.

Palum_sl said:
Consider that Centurion 1 hit the theateronly a monthafter the war ended.
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There's a difference between making a conscious decision to pursue MBT design as a matter of principle (which is what I thought you were criticizing the Germans for not doing, or rather, eschewing a focus on purely medium tank/Panther design along MBT lines) and simply improving tank designs until you have what is considered to have been the first MBT in practical terms. The concept of the MBT wasn't realized until well after the war and the Centurion was, at the time, seen as a greatly improved model in the Cromwell line of cruiser/cavalry tanks. It's design was started the same year that the Panther was deployed, and it was envisioned to be a "heavy cruiser" (that is, they still were viewing design in terms of cruiser/infantry/etc and not MBT design directed at a single, multipurpose platform).

The Centurion had a lifespan measured in decades not years, and while it wasn't originally envisioned as a MBT or deployed as such, it definitely developed into one after the war. We just have the benefit of hindsight and can see from our vantage point that the Centurion embodied a blend of design elements that would later come to define the MBT concept, just as we can also look back and judge that maybe Germany could have focused more on designs similar to Panthers instead of still designing various dead-end heavy tanks, which is what it sounded like you were arguing.
 
Palum

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Erronius_sl said:
We just have the benefit of hindsight and can see from our vantage point that the Centurion embodied a blend of design elements that would later come to define the MBT concept, just as we can also look back and judge that maybe Germany could have focused more on designs similar to Panthers instead of still designing various dead-end heavy tanks, which is what it sounded like you were arguing.
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Of course we have the benefits of hindsight, but the issue is that even hindsight doesn't explain the Germans ignoring the facts. While the MBT survived the decades ultimately because there wasn't aneedfor another tank (because it could 'do it all'), the reality was that the Panther was in the same spot, more or less. It could exploit breakthroughs, destroy tanks, scout, advance with infantry, protect logistics, everything. It was fairly cheap and easy to manufacture compared to heavy tanks, was still hard to kill and well engineered considering. I won't pretend it wasn't habitual blindness, though; the Germans wereobsessedwith Wunderwaffe in every sphere. Them not understanding that heavy tanks were really irrelevant wasn't any different than them not understanding V2s were great at squandering resources.
 
Gamma Rays

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The movie looks like it could be good.

Re: the discussion here. I just hope in the movie that they use reality in the depiction of the Sherman vs Tiger mis-match. And to have Brad Pitt and crew know that they have the odds greatly against them if they encounter a Tiger. And voice their fears, build up tension / audience expectation.

We see in the trailer that they do ( A tank movie will need to have tank vs tank I figure )

That should be the embodiment of their fears. The movie should play it that way and use that as a major plot and character drive. Which could work really well.

It'd be silly to dump that and try to paint the US tank as a capable 'Tiger fighter'. Older WW2 movies I've seen that were made shortly after WW2 made it seem that way, just not wanting to admit reality.
 
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