Eidal
Molten Core Raider
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What I'm not fine with is covering up the extra investment cost. Ultimately this comes down to money and if women cost more to train than men (those two did) then at least it ought to be discussed.
Gender Integration in the Infantry, and how Robots fight Misogyny
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I don't think you all are understanding that this wasn't a training session proper. Like a training program set up to train them. This was highly likely after-hours type extra PT with some who have already graduated the course. Something that a lot of male Ranger candidates do and have done for fucking ever. This article is making something out of absolutely nothing in that regard. The entire training program for new ranger infantry enlistees is 100% designed to do this as well. After basic training their entire training program is designed to get them ready for Ranger school.
You can say it is an extra investment cost. But honestly, you spend inordinate amounts of time doing absolutely nothing in the Army (as an Arabic translator/SSG in the 82nd Airborne with over 2 years in Iraq I spent three months doing nothing but yardwork, for example). So they got productive and started training before they went to the course. The one advantage they did have is that they did not have a set Go date when they had to be at the Ranger course. I would bet anything they did not have to go until their trainers and command absolutely knew they would have a strong shot. Most men do not get this opportunity and spend years between even getting shots to go to the course (infantry included). Which is bullshit. They said they were ready and pushed some dudes off the roster for that course.
The only thing to look for is if they were given preferential treatment during the course. Were they given less weight to hump, were they given the least demanding positions within the course. For example, the least amount of guard duty and things like this. That is absolutely a possibility and I hope it comes to light whether they did or not.
You can say it is an extra investment cost. But honestly, you spend inordinate amounts of time doing absolutely nothing in the Army (as an Arabic translator/SSG in the 82nd Airborne with over 2 years in Iraq I spent three months doing nothing but yardwork, for example). So they got productive and started training before they went to the course. The one advantage they did have is that they did not have a set Go date when they had to be at the Ranger course. I would bet anything they did not have to go until their trainers and command absolutely knew they would have a strong shot. Most men do not get this opportunity and spend years between even getting shots to go to the course (infantry included). Which is bullshit. They said they were ready and pushed some dudes off the roster for that course.
The only thing to look for is if they were given preferential treatment during the course. Were they given less weight to hump, were they given the least demanding positions within the course. For example, the least amount of guard duty and things like this. That is absolutely a possibility and I hope it comes to light whether they did or not.
Erronius
Macho Ma'am
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The original People article that Daily Mail cited (poorly) mentions the training as RTAC.
Female Rangers Were Given Special Treatment, Sources Say : People.com
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Eh, allowing them to recycle through RTAC does seem a bit unfair at first, but according to that article only guard are required to attend RTAC, reserve and regulars had the option to go straight to Ranger School. In a sense, women are actually being held to a higher standard than men, not a lower one. If failing RTAC could disqualify you from attending Ranger School, and RTAC is optional, why would you ever go through RTAC? I'd rather fail out of Ranger School than fail the voluntary assessment and never get the chance. If RTAC is mandatory for women, than it seems reasonable to let them retry the course, within reason. Being formed up into their own platoon after RTAC for extra training seems like what TJT was describing.
Do they mean others were involuntarily dropped from the program, or are they saying the exact same thing twice to make it sound worse?
Left of their own volition means they were probably not recovering from injuries fast enough or told that they should probably bow out.
The whole thing isn't a big deal but yes they got "special training". The men didn't get to stay away from their unit that long trying to prep for a course they may or may not pass. The Army is trying this out as a pilot though and things like that can be acceptable. The only real issue would be is if they got special treatment during the actual ranger course. So far I have not seen anything proving that they have.
Right but you are forgetting maybe that the people in the military have an actual job to do. I personally was communications. I think Phoenix was a truck driver. We have jobs that we do every day and train and prepare to do them in combat situations. There is equipment to inventory and do preventative maintenance on. There are administrative things to do for your career. Classes to give and to be given.
If you take several people out of their job and let them do this prep course over and over and over and over again until they finally get it right, and then push them through the ranger course and then when all that is said and done you send them back to their original jobs what exactly are you proving? What are you doing for them?
TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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IDK a_skeleton_03. That is kind of par the course for a lot of the Army. Despite having one of the jobs with the longest training periods that wasn't a Special Forces MOS I still did basically nothing whenever I was on Fort Bragg, which is again, the Army's nerve center.
You could take Bragg's version of the RTAC (called the Pre-Ranger Course) as much as your command would let you. Taking the PRC is completely mandatory at Bragg though. This is usually with at least a 90 day break if you fail for men though. All infantry are pushed to take it. If you're not infantry, like I wasn't. You can pass PRC and still not even get to go to Ranger school. As far as Gavinmad is saying. After infantry Basic you have a significant waiting period in the Ranger Prep battalion before getting to take the course. During this time literally all you do is prep for Ranger school. Its just not called anything because you are in limbo between AIT Infantry school and the Ranger course and its length isn't specific.
But as far as I'm concerned, as long as they weren't given preferential treatment during Ranger school I am totally cool with it.
You could take Bragg's version of the RTAC (called the Pre-Ranger Course) as much as your command would let you. Taking the PRC is completely mandatory at Bragg though. This is usually with at least a 90 day break if you fail for men though. All infantry are pushed to take it. If you're not infantry, like I wasn't. You can pass PRC and still not even get to go to Ranger school. As far as Gavinmad is saying. After infantry Basic you have a significant waiting period in the Ranger Prep battalion before getting to take the course. During this time literally all you do is prep for Ranger school. Its just not called anything because you are in limbo between AIT Infantry school and the Ranger course and its length isn't specific.
But as far as I'm concerned, as long as they weren't given preferential treatment during Ranger school I am totally cool with it.
Mist
Eeyore Enthusiast
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A friend of mine who was spec ops said that the pararescue guys he trained with in some schools were allowed to repeat training as many times as it took for them to pass, because they couldn't afford people with that level of medical training to just wash out of the program.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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This makes sense, though. Same with making exceptions for lawyers, doctors, technical experts, etc.
khorum
Murder Apologist
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There's an idea... it's more expensive to train parajumpers to be corpsmen, so we allow corpsmen to retrain as much as they need to become parajumpers.
We can't train a ranger to grow a uterus, but maaaaaaybe we can just find a couple who are willing to "Chelsea Manning" it for the team!
They wouldn't dare disqualify dickchopper rangers on that basis either, because diversity.
We can't train a ranger to grow a uterus, but maaaaaaybe we can just find a couple who are willing to "Chelsea Manning" it for the team!
They wouldn't dare disqualify dickchopper rangers on that basis either, because diversity.
Erronius
Macho Ma'am
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I guess if you happen to be local and in a unit that wants you to go through prep training repeatedly, and that training happens to be available, well then great. But if you aren't local and have to TDY for some of that shit, that's a completely different ballgame. A lot of bases aren't going to have localized training like that. No unit I was ever in would have been willing to let me TDY past the 2 weeks RTAC takes (assuming they would have let me TDY for it at all to begin with), but the allegations imply that these women were all there for extended periods and even had an exclusive training camp set up for them.
You can make the"do the training at your unit"argument, but as a_skeleton_03 pointed out it isn't remotely the same thing, and having the luxury to do it at your base is exactly that...a luxury. The two women who passed (along with other women) weren't from Benning or Bragg. The point being, if the stories are true, is that they still got accommodations that no men would have received. Given the amount of Brass, media and elected officials circling this entire thing like sharks after chum, I guess their being put on extended TDYs, front-loading RTAC and Ranger School with women to increase the odds and being put into a special platoon between RTAC and Ranger School isn't surprising. But it is what it is...
They don't have the double-standard PT tests for no reason, and the women weren't given extra help for no reason either. The Army has been under intense scrutiny and was well aware they'd be accused of discrimination if no women passed. I think that's bullshit, but it isn't because I don't want women to succeed.
Yes, they knew the actual Ranger course was going to be scrutinized nonstop and they "need" to have their women make it. They "need" this shot in the arm for diversity and everything else. This also brings new money in for specialized training. New barracks that are co-ed, a whole slew of new things.
They tried to stack the deck as much as possible before the part people were actually going to watch and I am not against that.
Mist
Eeyore Enthusiast
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Well, my other point is that if they really want women to serve in these units, they should find ones that have these difficult-to-replace skills, and therefore they can justify not washing them out under the existing guidelines for not washing people out.
Yeah I don't think you understand what they are trying to do. They already have that as an option for ancillary support.
What they don't have is women in direct combat roles. Women kicking a door down etc. That is what they are trying to change here. They aren't trying to get women to be "in the kitchen" of combat.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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The other part that makes me less annoyed that they're thinking about reducing a unit's efficacy with women is that I think our military is put in harm's way too frequently and the US public will be more affected by body bags coming home with young women in it than young men.
Maybe it's naive, but if Fox News shows a hot blonde woman that was KIA it might have a different effect than showing a typical male GI.
Then again, some 144 women have been KIA in the last couple decades and while I don't really follow this type of news I don't hear much about it:
GRIM TOLL OF MILITARY WOMEN KILLED IN WAR - News & Commentary - Center for Military Readiness
Maybe it's naive, but if Fox News shows a hot blonde woman that was KIA it might have a different effect than showing a typical male GI.
Then again, some 144 women have been KIA in the last couple decades and while I don't really follow this type of news I don't hear much about it:
GRIM TOLL OF MILITARY WOMEN KILLED IN WAR - News & Commentary - Center for Military Readiness